Puppety Opinion Please

[Puppetplanet]

Hello fellow puppet makers! :excited:

I was wondering if I could get your oppinion on something.

As some of you may know, I sell a few of the puppets I build on ebay. I get a lot of people asking me about "how" I did a certain something for the construction of my puppets. I don't want to be rude to potential buyers, but do you give away building secrets or anything like that? I just figure that it has taken years for me to figure out how to do some things and get my method just right.... I just feel funny about giving away my hard work.

I've got someone asking me to teach them how I built the mechanisim to hold the rods inside my puppets hands. I don't quite know what to say and wondered how other puppet builders handle those kind of questions.

I know that I have posted diagrams of how I constructed this exact thing here, but we are all here with the same desire to build quality puppets and you guys are more like kindrid spirits or family to me. ...... ebay just feels different.

What is your out look on this? Am I being stingy?
-Michele

[Super Scooter]

Even Henson keeps secrets from people. "The Henson Stitch" for example, has only been revealed to a few individuals outside the company. It's okay if you don't want to tell people how you do it. Just explain that it took a lot of hard work for you to make it, that it DID take years to dlearn how to do so, and you'd prefer not to reveal the methods. If that's really the way you feel...

[Baby Animal]

I would agree with Scooter (welcome back by the way.) There are certain things you want to keep to yourself when it comes to making the puppets. Maybe you should get a patent and everything, that way if you sell it to someone else, they can't deconstruct it and find out how you did it, only to patent it themselves and make you be out of luck. At least mail yourself the design and never open it until it's absolutely necessary. If you're making money off of it, it's yours. Gotta keep your breadmaker safe.

So how do you keep the rodarms inside the hands now? :p

j/k

[Puppetplanet]

Baby Animal..... I have a link to the diagram posted in the Arm Rod Thread if you would like to see it. :excited:

[Buck-Beaver]

Alot of people may disagree with this, but I think if you (and here I am discussing anyone in general and not you in particular Michele) benefits from a forum like this where you can ask questions and enjoy the knowledge of other puppeteers it's hypocritical to not answer someone's questions. If you've learned alot from other people you really should be willing to "give back" by at some point helping others who were starting out just like you were once.

I hate it when people are jerks and foolishly hoarde general puppetry knowledge from others. It's selfish. A young, but fairly prominent puppeteer up here once complained to me that none of his colleagues would tell him where he could buy antron fleece. We all know that this information is readily available everywhere on the Web, but despite that these other puppeteers absolutely refused to tell this fellow him where he could get it for himself (they did offer to give him some though). I thought that this was the most rediculous thing I had ever heard! And yes, I gave him the information. Absolute silliness.

Now that said, there are some special or original techniques that puppeteers or builders can spend years developing and I think those people are are well within their rights to keep those techniques to themselves because they spent years developing them. They didn't come out of a book or off the `net, they were the product of years of experience and hard work.

This can get tricky. I started out working for a black light puppet company. Now they are one of the best companies in the world at what they do and (because they have had their work shamelessly ripped off before) they are incredibly paranoid about people giving away their "secrets." I think they made me sign away my firstborn in the non-disclosure agreement I had to sign!

The trouble with this was that most of what they do they didn't actually invent so it's not really a "secret". There's actually only three specific things in their work that they came up with themselves so when I'm asked questions about black light puppetry I willingly share everything I know except those three specific things (I wouldn't use them in my own work either) because they are unqiue, original and I respect that. The rest of it can be found in a book and it's general knowledge as far as I am concerned. All I am doing by telling someone is saving them a trip to library.

What you have to be prepared for though is that someone you share with will likely turn around and rip off your work. That is, they'll just copy what you do rather than invent their own way of doing things. That's OK. We've all done it. But be prepared for this and don't take it too personally if it happens. You didn't invent puppetry and neither did the person you learned from. All art is built on what has been done before.

My general rule of thumb is that anything in your work that you can find in a book at the library or online isn't a secret and probably wasn't your idea in the first place so you really shouldn't have any issues with sharing that knowledge with someone else like it was shared with you. If you do have a truly special, unique or "secret" way of doing things and you don't want people to know or use, then just politely decline to talk about it.

I wouldn't worry too much about people copying you on ebay or elsewhere online either. The fact is that virtually all of the puppets (professional or otherwise) offered on the net for under $100-$150 aren't really that "professional" anyways. Anyone with a copy of the foam book, a few basic sewing skills and a little practice could make them. It's like cars. Everyone can find out how to make one. Not everyone can build a Porsche. What will really set you apart out there is your creativity. Thankfully, no one can rip that off.

[Buck-Beaver]

I would agree with Scooter (welcome back by the way.) There are certain things you want to keep to yourself when it comes to making the puppets. Maybe you should get a patent and everything, that way if you sell it to someone else, they can't deconstruct it and find out how you did it, only to patent it themselves and make you be out of luck.Puppet-Planet builds great puppets, but I think there is very little there that is original enough to patent. Just my opinion though.

At least mail yourself the design and never open it until it's absolutely necessary. I'm not a patent lawyer, but if you do want to protect something this won't help. Patents go to whoever files them first. If someone else beats you do it you're out of luck...even if you invented it first.

[Puppetplanet]

Thank you for the well thought out reply Buck-Beaver. I totally agree and would never try to hide typical information that could be found on the internet or other sources that I have learned from. What I get protective about is something that I have come up with and is all of my own work and time put into getting it just right.

For exapmle, My patterns are not patterns that I purchased somewhere. Although I learned the basic construction techniques of building a puppet I designed a pattern that worked best for me from what I have learned.

What I did do for this specific person was offer all my knowledge for resources where they could go to learn more about puppet contruction. I included all of the links that I saved from here (inlcuding yours Buck), some diagrams that I found on the web, links to patterns and instructional videos that people on here have sworn by, and a simple puppet pattern e-book that I purchased elsewhere (with the owners permission of course.)

And NO! I did not keep the source of Antron fleece a secret! Thats just silly! *laughing* I sent them Kathy's e-mail info. ;)

Thanks again Buck!

By-The-Way....... I know my puppets are not top quality "professional" type puppets. It's a working progress.... but they do have some qualities that put them above those "others" if I do say so myself. *laughing*

[Buck-Beaver]

What I did do for this specific person was offer all my knowledge for resources where they could go to learn more about puppet contruction. I included all of the links that I saved from here (inlcuding yours Buck), some diagrams that I found on the web, links to patterns and instructional videos that people on here have sworn by, and a simple puppet pattern e-book that I purchased elsewhere (with the owners permission of course.)

For exapmle, My patterns are not patterns that I purchased somewhere. Although I learned the basic construction techniques of building a puppet I designed a pattern that worked best for me from what I have learned.Exactly. Oh, and don't ever give out patterns. There are sooo many unfortunate stories about people who have done that.

You know the wedge thing? I use that all the time as a basis for patterns. I'm not going to post patterns because let's face it, someone somewhere would probably use them and I don't really want that. But explaining the wedge thing points people in the right direction. That's all you're getting out of me though lol ... people can figure the rest out for themselves!! :zany:

And NO! I did not keep the source of Antron fleece a secret! Thats just silly! *laughing* I sent them Kathy's e-mail info. ;)Remember, I said I was addressing the issue in general, and not responding to you in particular, but see...you are already sharing more than certain quasi-Muppet folk who shall remain nameless lol.

Actually, that's not fair. Truth is, whether I like it or not alot of people are reluctant to give out info because they have been burned by unscrupulous people who just want to rip them off. It's shame. Still not a good excuse for not helping/sharing, but I get where these people are coming from too.

By-The-Way....... I know my puppets are not top quality "professional" type puppets. It's a working progress.... but they do have some qualities that put them above those "others" if I do say so myself. *laughing*Again, I was just speaking generally Michele. But I do agree they are much, much better and more original than many of the puppets I see on the web. :)

Now what I would like to see is everyone break out of the Muppet style cartoon hand rod puppets (myself included). Do something really original. We should run a contest. What does everyone think?

[Puppetplanet]

Oh no Buck... I wasn't taking anything personally. I actually welcome and often ask for criticism, especially when it comes to my work because it helps me put more effort into building better puppets. :excited:

Just so long as no one tells me that my bird looks like feathered poo-poo or something. *laughing* By-The-Way....... the birdie currently on ebay is using the wedge method (I think thats what your refering too but I wont go into details since you seem to want to keep that secret) ;) No one seems to like the poor guy though, no bids with him sitting at $20. :cry: I personally wasn't happy with the wings and though I should have put hands instead, but those were the hubby's idea.

Ah well, thats what happens sometimes. He sold once before but had to be relisted because some schmuck didn't pay.:mad:

OH! I did wanna ask why giving out patterns would cause ya to run into problems? They are home made patterns designed by someone, but I got permission before forwarding it...... thats bad? It's just a simple puppet that you stuff with poly fill, nothing that anyone is going to get rich off of.


So...... what kind of contest.... just a unique something? That would be fun Buck, maybe you should post a new thread and see if we get any responces. Mention if there are restrictions in size, type, and date when everyone should be complete... etc. FUN! FUN! FUN!

[Buck-Beaver]

OH! I did wanna ask why giving out patterns would cause ya to run into problems? They are home made patterns designed by someone, but I got permission before forwarding it...... thats bad? It's just a simple puppet that you stuff with poly fill, nothing that anyone is going to get rich off of.Well, what I meant was that it is probably a very bad idea to give away original patterns. I know of a puppet builder who once was kind enough to teach someone who approached her everything she knew and he turned around and started selling exactly the same puppets! He actually built a small, but reasonably successful business off her years of work. :boo: Not nice. On the bright side, she ended up completely changing her work and it is better than ever now! :)

[Fozzie Bear]

There are ways to give full information without giving the full information. I found that my best knowledge came from research, and that's what I always suggest people to do: research. Sometimes, it ocmes in the form of reading these posts, but other times it comes from digging through library books or more.

I don't mind giving information when there is a direct question asked of me, and the reason is that in the past I've had a need to ask (when research didn't pan out) and was rejected the answer. It's my duty to teach the information I have to those who do not have it yet, and if it's definitely something that I feel will ultimately infringe on my characters I try to find another answer for the inquisitives.

As Buck says, I wouldn't dare give out my personal patterns, but patterns which are readily available online or in books I will direct folks to those.

Kev

[Show and Tell]

I finally have a name picked out for my company. I have a new design for my puppets but I need to find out how to go about registering my business name . Also a patent for my puppet design. Do I even need a patent on a pattern? I did a serch of the forum and found nothing on this.

[Iokitek]

interresting thread :) I was wondering about these things myself.

Thanks for putting tutorials on your site Michelle. The Blue Boy pattern has been very helpfull to start off with. And so was the eye tutorial. I made my own version out of transparent spoons though. Once I get access to my ISP again I'll see if I can post a tutorial.

Right now I am in the process of designing, selecting and testing building materials for a 2 person rodpuppet system that should allow me to do all these things 'at the same time' :

- Move the puppet itself, ofcourse, but weight distribution is very important
- Move the head in all directions
- Move the arms and being able to control all fingers seperately
- Move the mouth in 2 different positions and being able to open wide or close it entirely while remaining in position
- Move the eyes in all directions
- Make the eyelids blink seperately or together and being able to keep their position
- frown the eyebrows

I'm really exited about this whole project because it allows me to do so much at once using only 2 puppeteers. And without the use of animatronics. Although I might use some household electronics for certain parts eventually though. I just don't know that much about electronics so I'm trying to work it all out the oldfashioned way. I'm actually building this out of wood and pvc pipes etc.

The more I work on this the more I realize that although every individual mechanic isn't that original, the way I put it together is, as far as I can tell anyway. After reading this thread I have decided that when I have worked out the details it's best to apply for a patent and then I'll see if it is really that original.

But I do seem to be succeeding quite well in designing multi functional low-budget puppets so far :) even if I won't be able to get all the details in there in the end, only a few of them would already be more than most rod puppets have as far as I can tell. I'm just trying to go for the gold before I settle for silver :p

[ravagefrackle]

my only thought on this is that learning something for yourself, instead of being told is much more important in the long run , it trains your mind to think, and expand, and to find new solutions for things,

if you are just told how to do something i dont think u are really learning.

but that just my humble opinion

[FISH'N'WOLFE]

My only thought on this is that learning something for yourself, instead of being told is much more important in the long run , it trains your mind to think, and expand, and to find new solutions for things, if you are just told how to do something I dont think you are really learning.

Absolutely, I feel the same way. I've learned best by teaching myself, it allows for all sorts of creative inventions.

[Woofus]

If I may toss my two cents in here.... I don't mind when people ask me questions about something I know, or do. My biggest problem is when they don't have the gumption to do a little research on their own, first. I'm in the process of making my very first puppet. (Yay me!) I have a TON of questions. But, I would feel kind of bad, or even lazy to go to some of you and just ask you to "Show me everything you did to make ____". I've done a bunch of reading, searching the web, checking out books etc. I feel that I have a good basic grasp of how to do it. Now, this doesn't mean that I may not come along with a question or two later on, but I feel I have enough knowledge and creativeness to go at it by myself.

Of course we'll have to see how the first puppet turns out. ;)

Woofus!

[PaulyPuppets]

The fact is that virtually all of the puppets (professional or otherwise) offered on the net for under $100-$150 aren't really that "professional" anyways.

Come on, Buck. That's not fair to say. I mean what defines "professional"? If a sock puppet was used to represent a Pet Store Company, it becomes a professional puppet regardless of the materials it's made of. I've said truthfully before, that I build all my puppets out of affordable materials, so that the average puppet buyer can afford them. Most are ministries, but many are professional puppeteers. Puppetplanets' puppets, mine, and several others out there, are considered professional enough for folks to keep buying them over and over and over again. Now I admit, I just skimmed through the posts here, so maybe you didn't mean PuppetPlanets work, or mine for that matter. But I still need to voice my opinion. Building affordable puppets is solely how I've supported my family for 3 years now. Not many builders can say this. We must be doing something right. My feeling is, give the customer what they want, make them happy, and your product will be considered professional, regardless of how much you sell them for.
As far as sharing ideas (what this thread is really about), I prefer to share my ideas with other pro puppet builders, rather than with customers willing to buy my work. But only if the other pro puppeteers are willing to share their ideas with me. Business is business. Even The Henson Company as you know, has declared the invisible triangle method to be a trade secret. There's got to be limits and rules to sharing. Just one guys thoughts.
www.puppetsnstuff.com
http://stores.ebay.com/PUPPETSNSTUFF-PUPPETS

[Yahnke]

I agress with buck in the fact that I don't think anyone should feel the need to share secret they have developed on their own- ESPECIALLY if those secrets are essentail to their lively hood. If you are supporting your family by building puppets then i wouldn't be disappointed if you didn't tell me how to build a puppet- although i also would blame anyone for asking, for you'll never know if you don't ask. It's like a mechanic. Most people could fix their own cars if they knew what tools to use and how to do it- yet a mechanic won't guide you through it because that is how he supports himself.

I do have one issue though with buck's comments- Who decides what quality makes a puppet "PROFESSIONAL." I would call many of the puppets for sale professional. I would certainly call puppet-planets professional. Certainly more professional than puppets from one way street- not to say that OWS are not to be considered professional.

[PaulyPuppets]

I agree 100%.

[Buck-Beaver]

I finally have a name picked out for my company. I have a new design for my puppets but I need to find out how to go about registering my business name . Also a patent for my puppet design. Do I even need a patent on a pattern?
I believe that patterns cannot be patented; patents are only issued for original inventions. Patterns are covered by copyright. You can double check this with the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office. They have a web site at http://www.uspto.gov

I think to register a business name in most U.S. states you simply file a DBA or "Doing Business As" through your city or county.

[Buck-Beaver]

If I may toss my two cents in here.... I don't mind when people ask me questions about something I know, or do. My biggest problem is when they don't have the gumption to do a little research on their own, first.I think that's it exactly. I was at a seminar this week where someone commented that if you want to find a mentor or get advice from someone you have to be respectful and not be a "time sucker" or expect them to do all of your work work for you.

[Buck-Beaver]

I do have one issue though with buck's comments- Who decides what quality makes a puppet "PROFESSIONAL." I would call many of the puppets for sale professional. I would certainly call puppet-planets professional. Certainly more professional than puppets from one way street- not to say that OWS are not to be considered professional.Well, I have to think back because this thread is over a year and a half old, but more than likely I put "professional" in quotation marks because just as you say it's highly subjective.

Buying a puppet is like buying a car. Of course a puppet that costs $100 probably won't be quite as nice as one that costs $5,000. That's pretty indisputable (Rick Lyon explains some of the differences that price can make here (http://www.lyonpuppets.com/custompups.html)).

To put it another way, a Honda Civic isn't as well built as Porsche, but that doesn't mean the Civic isn't a nice car that will do what you need it to.

There are lots of very talented builders - Pauly and Michelle among them - who produce great work and price it low to keep it affordable for their customers. There's a big market for that. If anything Pauly and Michelle's work is probably underpriced and not representative of the kind of puppets I'm talking about.

The cheaper puppets I usually knock are the kinds put out by companies like Kids on the Block and to a lesser extent OWS - relatively expensive puppets that are extremely derivative and poor quality. It may not even be fair to lump OWS in that category because I've heard they've made some big leaps in terms of quality in recent years, but the puppets I've seen in person were not very good. I won't even get started on the horrible expensive puppets KotB forces it's groups to buy from them.

To me, a really good high quality puppet - I don't want to say "professional" because it's such a loaded word - is one that's light, doesn't look derivative, can be manipulated properly in a life-like manner and is built to last out of durable, flexible and high quality materials. But you know what? Half of the puppets I have don't meet that criteria because they had to be built quickly or made on the cheap and that's OK too.

In the end whatever works, works.

[PaulyPuppets]

Here, here. Thanks, Buck. .....Pauly
www.puppetsnstuff.com

[Show and Tell]

I believe that patterns cannot be patented; patents are only issued for original inventions. Patterns are covered by copyright. You can double check this with the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office. They have a web site at http://www.uspto.gov (http://www.uspto.gov/)

I think to register a business name in most U.S. states you simply file a DBA or "Doing Business As" through your city or county.I reopened this thread in a failed attemp to find a info on registering my new business.LOL kinda funny how it seemed for a moment this old thread almost opened a can of worms. Thanks for the answer Buck. I'll check into that link.

[Fozzie Bear]

I'm not addressing anyone in particular, but on the topic of so-called "trade secrets."

I'm Vice-President of the Mid-South Cartoonists Association (part of the Southeastern Chapter of the National Cartoonists Society), and my own character (you all know him, Muley) is also a puppet (and mascot costume). This isn't necessarily about puppetry, but ties-in.

Even though I've had the cartoon character for 25 years this year, I'm still learning more and more about comic stripping. There's more to the process than just reading about it in books or online, or practicing it. It's about learning from people who DO it. My pal, Greg Cravens ("The Buckets" syndicated cartoonist) has offered to sit down with me (yet again) and help me learn what he can teach me what he knows to better my own art, but also to help further the art of cartooning--the sole purpose of the Mid-South Cartoonists Association!

Regardless what I can read about the technique or business of the career of comic strips, I'll learn more from someone who is actually DOING that. And in turn, what I learn I can teach someone who is less knowledgeable about the topic than I.

And it all kind of ties-in to puppetry, performance and building. Everyone is so keen on their own 'trade secrets' that they are afraid to pass it on. Okay, so you taught yourself something. Well, someone else knows that same technique too--and probably before you did. At the same time, there's someone else who is trying to learn it. To say that someone hasn't gumption to research it and try to learn said 'trade secret' is hypocritical at best, especially when they live so far away and won't ever even be near enough to warrnt the title of 'the competition!'

I don't know everything, and I'm not an encyclopedia of information about puppetry, but I know what I know and that's all available to whoever is willing to listen and learn. For me personally, the promotion of the art of cartooning and the art of puppetry and the continuation of either depends on me as someone who KNOWS about the topic to teach someone who NEEDS to know so they can become professional enough to BE an artist in that field. Otherwise, you have a bunch of amateurs running around trying to figure it out and with more amateurs than those in the know we stand a possibility of discrediting our own professionalism by 1) folks seeing the amateur art first and then considering that everyone performs that same way and, 2) letting an artform die by not promoting and teaching it when we can.

After all, if everyone kept tight-lipped about 'trade secrets' then we wouldn't have universities or educators, and the books and websites we suggest that someone hasn't had 'gumption' to research first wouldn't ever have existed if those authors were tight-lipped to begin with, would we?

On a semi-hypocritical note of what all I just said: My characters in particular (Muley and friends) have patterns designated specifically for my own design, and those patterns would never be shared because of they are particularly distinct; however, I have a basic people-pattern (and even use the Blue Boy Pattern off AOL with some alterations--that's how I built my Mahna-Mahna puppet) which I'll share upon request via mail (as long as SASE is included).

So, in summary: There are no 'trade secrets,' especially not within these forums because someone before you already figured out what you know, and though you may have struggled to figure it out we as professionals should educate others on how it's done as appreciation for having been given that knowledge.

I'm an open book and when I can I'm willing to offer up whatever information someone might need. Unfortunately, I don't have as much time these days to pay much attention to the boards. I just hope others will follow my lead and educate those with a passion for learning and plan on using what they learn.

Those without passion, then I just don't have the time. You can tell the difference.

[Show and Tell]

I don't believe anyone here is having to reinvent the wheel or anything. The fact is, anyone that really has a genuine desire to learn this art is going to take the time to do some simple research to look up that information that has already been discovered. As has already been stated, I think you've really gotta be some jerk to just withhold simple things like where to buy materials or links to patterns or helps that have already been made public information on the net. But in the same respect I think it rather lazy of someone with any desire to become a puppeteer, puppet builder or rock collector to not even bother trying to locate this info unless they have no knowledge that this info exists. Many times new people come into this forum as I did myself requesting information on how to get started. I am extremely greatful for all the help I have recieved here. I've learned incredibly valuable info has shaped the direction of my career in life. That being said, I have had to invest much of my time researching old threads much of my money buying materials tools of the trade and books, videos, news letters and going to performances where I could take what I have learned here and see it work to gain a better understanding.

All I'm saying is public info should be freely distributed since as Fozzie said it was given to you. But don't just hand them everything. There is something very inspiring about the research as well.

Now on the other hand, inventions of your own I can understand not wanting them just given out. But PLEASE!!! Don't just let that invention die with you. Give it to someone. Even if it never becomes common knowledge still give it to someone. Someone who will use it and keep it alive. Archive it or something.

[Fozzie Bear]

Now on the other hand, inventions of your own I can understand not wanting them just given out. But PLEASE!!! Don't just let that invention die with you. Give it to someone. Even if it never becomes common knowledge still give it to someone. Someone who will use it and keep it alive. Archive it or something.

That's why I have 2 Muley apprentices...one is my best-friend Lin (Vice-President of Mule Operations), and a girl who is just starting out--I'm teaching her the 'threads' of puppet building (various simple puppets), and then one day she'll be helping me with Muley and Friends.

The patterns for Muley are all on file, so if something happened to me, it's all available to whoever comes afterwards to continue the character, and on the cartoon, puppet, and suit levels I have someone designated. These patterns won't be made public, obviously since they're basically trademarked, but they are available to those who will need it.

I do have links and patterns available to those who need them, though, as mentioned above and I'll pass them all around the table for some sampling--so break out the spoons! heh heh...

[bobhopesite]

Ditto!

[scarylarrywolf]

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to keep any info one has learned to oneself -- I wonder how amazing it would be if everyone shared all their building secrets, how quickly we could all advance to the next step. It's a socialist idea I suppose, but I'm willing to share any and all of my secrets with others so they can build up from that point, and then share the info they gather the next time around.

This parallels my belief that copyrights are a hinderance to artistic excellence. They can be useful for somethings, such as ensuring that a song doesn't get used for opposite purposes than for which it was written -- that would destroy the original artist's intent. However, I would strongly advocate free usage of songs or any visual works which, when incorporated into a film, correspond beautifully with the message of that film and essentially combine forces to spread the original message more powerfully. As someone who does produce some music and visual art, I honestly think it would be greedy of me to hold them back from accomplishing those purposes, and they would bring me more joy than the creating of them to see them being used by other people to spread the same messages. So the same goes for puppet building info. I think that is one of the ultimate joys of creating -- building off each other.

[Iokitek]

That's great when it's your hobby. But when you're a professional alot of legal issues come into play. If I would copy your puppets for instance and present them as my own you would probably be really ****** and you'd wish you could undertake legal actions. Escpeically if I become wealthy with it while you don't make a dime.

I understand completely that some people don't want to share their secrets. But as Buck said some things are not even secrets at all. They are public knowledge. Everyone who for instance refuses to tell other people where to buy antron fleece is a fruitcake in my opinion. They are obviously not professionals then or else they would've easily been able to distinguish a trade secret from public knowledge.

On related note: I notice alot of puppet builders are not exactly happy people. I'm guessing this has to do with the stress of trying to build up a business.

[Buck-Beaver]

This parallels my belief that copyrights are a hinderance to artistic excellence. They can be useful for somethings, such as ensuring that a song doesn't get used for opposite purposes than for which it was written -- that would destroy the original artist's intent. However, I would strongly advocate free usage of songs or any visual works which, when incorporated into a film, correspond beautifully with the message of that film and essentially combine forces to spread the original message more powerfully.
I guarantee your position on this would change if someone started using Scary Larry and made millions merchandising him. That's why copyright exists. :p

Still, I guess by Bill Gates' standards (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/05/bill_gates_free_cult.html) I'm one of those pesky "Creative Commies" (http://creativecommons.org) who advocate Lawernce Lessig's idea of Free Culture (http://free-culture.org/) too. Now what's misunderstood about "free" culture is that in many cases it's not entirely free (unless the author of a work chooses it to be) but it is fair. There's more info available on the Free Culture web site

A complete absence of copyright would undermine many artist's ability to make a living and would allow them (and their work) to be exploited unfairly, but copyright as it exists today is sorely in need of reimagining.

[Iokitek]

That Free Culture concept is very interresting. I've been reading up on it for abit. And so far it's very insightfull from what I can tell. I'm not the kind of person to copy someone elses ideas as a whole. But it's obviously good to read up on it some more. Wich I will surely do :)

[PaulyPuppets]

On related note: I notice alot of puppet builders are not exactly happy people. I'm guessing this has to do with the stress of trying to build up a business.

A lot of people period are not exactly happy people. Who among us doesn't have stress, no matter what you do?

[bobhopesite]

That Free Culture concept is very interresting. I've been reading up on it for abit. And so far it's very insightfull from what I can tell. I'm not the kind of person to copy someone elses ideas as a whole. But it's obviously good to read up on it some more. Wich I will surely do :)

Yeah.

[Show and Tell]

I guarantee your position on this would change if someone started using Scary Larry and made millions merchandising him. That's why copyright exists. :p
A complete absence of copyright would undermine many artist's ability to make a living and would allow them (and their work) to be exploited unfairly, but copyright as it exists today is sorely in need of reimagining. I totally agree with you on this one Buck. Look at all the inventions in the world.(I realize this would fall under patents and not copyrights but its the principle) what if noone was able to take the credit for there own invention. What real motivation would anyone have to invent or further the human race? People have a need aside from the paycheck that comes with it to be rewardeed for their contribution to mankind. Even in puppet building. If you make strides to develope this art, human nature is to want your name to go on as having been the one that made this accomplishment. Still I feel that in the event you are unable to go on, the steps you have taken should be forwarded to another so whatever it is you do wheather it be rocket science or puppetry can advance even a step beyond you.

[Puppetplanet]

Wow! who dug this bone from it's grave?! I jump in to see if anything new is happening around here and thought I had entered a time warp or something. :p


Hello everyone.
-M

[Show and Tell]

*hides his head in shame* I did.:o

[Rugby]

"if you are just told how to do something i dont think u are really learning."


Then what is the point of going to school or college? Should we all just learn how to do whatever we want to do on our own? Do doctors and surgeons just figure it out on their own? Do plane mechanics just figure it out on their own? Come on.

[ravagefrackle]

"if you are just told how to do something i dont think u are really learning."
Then what is the point of going to school or college? Should we all just learn how to do whatever we want to do on our own? Do doctors and surgeons just figure it out on their own? Do plane mechanics just figure it out on their own? Come on.


there is a big difference between school and being told how to do something,

first of all at school u are given basic skills and then they are expanded on thru the years , and a doctor or surgeon, actully learns alot thru working with mentor and learing anaotomy , studying books and then under the guidance of others is taught , how to do all that is needed, , same for mechanics, and if you really want to get down to it,

college, and university students, medical students, and mechanics, and engineers all do something that somebeody just asking for an answer dosent.

THEY ALL PAY TUTION, OR SCHOOL FEES, OR FOR CONTINUING EDUCATION COuRSES!!!!!!!!!

now im not saying im apposed to giving advice here and there, but , im not going to give away the whole store of knowledge for free,sorry but thats life sometimes you have to pay for things, and if you want to learn every little nuance , then i will gladly teach you , but for a fee, like any other teacher.

i spent years of life training my self, working as a intern, as a low level employee, and finally as a recognized designerand builder, that took hard work effort , and determination, why would i just give away my talent or Knowledge for free ???????

[Rugby]

It's nice to see the reality and truth that puppetry is actually all about the money. Not. If somebody were to start up a competitive company using your knowledge, I could understand. But refusing to help a fan of puppets for recreational use only is mind boggling.

Give them advice on how to build a puppet and sure, they may not buy one of yours. Don't tell them and they still might not buy one of yours. Can you really blame people for asking? Have you tried researching puppet building? There isn't exactly a wealth of quality information out there. I could almost vomit everytime I hear somebody refer someone to The Muppets Make Puppets and that kind of information. I think most of us are past making puppets with sandwich baggies and paper plates. The fact is, there isn't much out there to help one build a halfway decent puppet. That's why people come here, to a popular muppet web site, to ask. Maybe they think this would be the best resource for getting puppet building advice. The greed in the puppet business just annoys me.


I should say, I don't really have a problem with your decision to not help others in the hobby of puppetry as much as your attitude towards those that ask for help.

[Show and Tell]

It's nice to see the reality and truth that puppetry is actually all about the money. Not. If somebody were to start up a competitive company using your knowledge, I could understand. But refusing to help a fan of puppets for recreational use only is mind boggling.

Give them advice on how to build a puppet and sure, they may not buy one of yours. Don't tell them and they still might not buy one of yours. Can you really blame people for asking? Have you tried researching puppet building? There isn't exactly a wealth of quality information out there. I could almost vomit everytime I hear somebody refer someone to The Muppets Make Puppets and that kind of information. I think most of us are past making puppets with sandwich baggies and paper plates. The fact is, there isn't much out there to help one build a halfway decent puppet. That's why people come here, to a popular muppet web site, to ask. Maybe they think this would be the best resource for getting puppet building advice. The greed in the puppet business just annoys me.


I should say, I don't really have a problem with your decision to not help others in the hobby of puppetry as much as your attitude towards those that ask for help. Ok what exactly are you refering to because from what I have read noone on this forum was saying they wouldnt be willing to help out an aspring builder. I myself have learned quite a bit from many of these builders on this forum. And what information I didn't get from them I was directed to purchase a video or book. I understand in order to get something I have to be willing to give something as well. That kind of knowledge is not nor should it be free. Yes this is reality. Some things I will not learn untill I have put in the time practicing. Also there is nothing wrong with making a living with your art.

[ravagefrackle]

It's nice to see the reality and truth that puppetry is actually all about the money. Not. If somebody were to start up a competitive company using your knowledge, I could understand. But refusing to help a fan of puppets for recreational use only is mind boggling. .

where in my answer did i say i would not give advice????
what i said is im not going to give you evry little tidbit of info about building a puppet, You clearly read only what you wanted to read, and not what i actually wrote.

.[/QUOTE]Give them advice on how to build a puppet and sure,they may not buy one of yours. Don't tell them and they still might not buy one of yours. Can you really blame people for asking? .[/QUOTE]

Honestley , i dont expect or really think anyone on here will buy one of my puppets, they arnt meant for hobbists, they are built for film , and theatre performances,
[/QUOTE]Have you tried researching puppet building? There isn't exactly a wealth of quality information out there. I could almost vomit everytime I hear somebody refer someone to The Muppets Make Puppets and that kind of information. I think most of us are past making puppets with sandwich baggies and paper plates..[/QUOTE]

well much like your ability to read what is written, you arnt looking beyond whats on the page, Puppetrty is a art composed of many different skills, and crafts, THIER IS NO ONE RIGHT WAY!!!!!!!!!!
you need to be able to sculpt, pattern fabric,work with wood,work with different adhesives, you need a wealth of craft and technical skills, and most important you need to be able to look at something and say yes that works , or no that dosent.

go to a home depot and look at the shelves , and say "HEY , I CAN USE THAT AS PART OF MY PUPPETS".

do you really think we proffesinals have a secret book that tells you how to build a muppet style puppet???????


The fact is, there isn't much out there to help one build a halfway decent puppet. That's why people come here, to a popular muppet web site, to ask. Maybe they think this would be the best resource for getting puppet building advice.

.[/QUOTE]The greed in the puppet business just annoys me..[/QUOTE]


GREED???????? i gave a honest answer , you didnt like it, to call me or any other builder GREEDY is just wrong,

i worked hard to get were i am, noone gave me a clue what to do, i studied evrything i could get my hands on, and to be perfectly honest that has made me the artist i am today,
.[/QUOTE]I should say, I don't really have a problem with your decision to not help others in the hobby of puppetry as much as your attitude towards those that ask for help.[/QUOTE]

AND ONCE AGAIN THE THING THAT REALLY SET ME OFF HERE<,WERE DID IT SAY I WOULNT HELP????????????????????i suggest you go back and reread what i wrote, and ask yourself if you actually understood what i wrte, or if you were just miffed that i said i would not give deatailed instuctions on how to do something. :attitude:

[Rugby]

Yep, I think I got you confused with somebody else in this thread and I apologize. Happens all the time on message boards. I'll reread the whole thread when I have time and address the appropriate poster(s). I apologize for my reading abilities as well.

[ravagefrackle]

appology accepted

[Fozzie Bear]

I could almost vomit everytime I hear somebody refer someone to The Muppets Make Puppets and that kind of information.

But, it's in those basic kinds of information from which you begin the learning of that wealth of knowledge which we're discussing.

Originally, as a kid (we're talking 9 year old here), my puppet attempts sucked to high heaven. Wanna know how I learned to make my first puppet?

Remember those horrible little puppets that come in cheap easter baskets from the dollar stores? I got one. It was a little orange deal with oval eyes and a tuft of yellow fur for hair on his head. I took a crayon and paper, traced over that pattern, and cut it from felt and made my own, very first puppet. Still have him somewhere. About 3 years later I made a red glove to give him a hand. I used that ugly thing with my Muppet Puppets at school for puppet shows.

And don't you DARE make fun of me for getting easter baskets at 9!!

Anyways, I made a second puppet the same way of a reindeer. They weren't even of my cartoon characters which I had created prior to those years. It was after these I made my first 'sock' puppet, which if I had found the Muppets make Puppets book back then (if they would have printed such a thing) I could have done better.

I did purchase a puppet pattern from Puppets with Personality (people puppet patterns), and began making some of those to play with, but then I began to alter the pattern and add or subtract parts and using different furs and fabrics and learned some stuff that way.

What minimal knowledge I know I've learned on my own, or by searching through some folks' websites (AOL's Blue Boy Puppet Pattern is easy, and I love it for quick little deals). Books have hardly produced much knowledge for me anymore these days, although I use the Muppets make Puppets book (belive it or not) for reference.

Lately, more good books have hit the market about puppet building, but they're all focused mainly for kids. As far as basic puppet building information, you can find it in those books or on the net no problem.

As far as advanced puppet building, blinking eyes and more, that's all available on the net, too; you just have to find it. I think even Pete shared his blinking eyes with me once (right?) and Buck's shared some info with me in the past, too.

Thing is, gang, to ask those you consider the professionals a question you need answered, and add this to the question, "...or possible reference material where I can find the answer." I for one am the kind of person I like for people to LEARN the information, and if I can teach that to them, fine; but I like for folks to also have a bit of drive to learn for themselves, so when I have reference material (I call it homework) I pass that along.

Someone wanted a good leg pattern lately, and I'm offering them a copy of the leg pattern I use on Muley. It's not going to make or break a character of mine for that much information to be dispersed, so I don't mind sharing it (as long as they'll send me that SASE, haha). Of course, I won't let them have his head pattern because Muley is mine distinctly, copyrighted and all that. But, a pattern I use to make something else that is basic then I'll play along and let them have that.

With homework of course! :zany:

[bobhopesite]

Of course. ;)

[whatadoddle]

Hello,
I am a new member of Muppet Central though I have read messages etc with interest for some time.
I too feel a little bit protective about giving away too much info to people I don't know. I have often considered selling my puppets on E-Bay but felt that they might be dissected by someone trying to make a living on the back of my hard work!
That said, I am consumed with solving my own puppet-building problems and scour the net with interest to try and do so. However, far from wanting to 'copy' other puppet builder's hard work, I am keen to find another approach to solving my problem (does this make any sense at all?). I would be horrified if my creation was not unique to me, as that is part of my personality and that of my puppet.
I really enjoy the challenge, and eat, sleep and dream my new ideas.
I think that it is the lack of such imagination by some that drives them to 'copy' our hard work. That's sad.
However, from what I have seen that this community is a set of like-minded puppet - potty people that are keen to keep this wonderful art of ours alive.
That's it from Whatadoddle U.K. see you soon!

[FISH'N'WOLFE]

Welcome to the forum, be sure to visit the new members thread here. (http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2294)