Arm making technique(s)?

[spcglider]

Okay, here's a good technical question for you pro puppet builders. (Or anyone else with a good solution!)

I'll try to explain the effect I want and hopefully someone will be able to tell me a good technique or construction tip to achieve it.

I'm working on a puppet that requires glove hands, so he'll be operated by two puppeteers... somewhat like Ernie on Sesame Street.

I want to avoid the Telly Monster/Cookie Monster/Beaker style of connecting the arms to the body and disguising the puppeteer's hands. Where their bodies are basically a big baggy bag and many folds of fabric disguise the "exit" of the puppeteer's performing arms.

The look I'm trying to achieve is much like that of "Popeye". My character has a gorilla body and I want his arms to be thinner at the top where they protrude from the shoulder and flare out at the end where they meet with the wrist.

The body and arms are a shaggy black fur, so matching the pattern on the fabric isn't a concern. But I am wondering how others may have reconciled the upper arm (stuffed tube) to the lower arm (long glove containing performer's arm/hand)? The connection point between the two and the fashion by which the performer's arm enters is of great importance to me.

And are there any construction techniques that function better/ look better on screen? I'm looking for maximum mobility with a minimum of conscious wrangling to keep the "exit tube" disguised or hidden from camera.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or tips!

-Gordon

[D'Snowth]

I know this isn't going to help much, but here's a little insight in what I've done with transforming Steve from a rod puppet to a glove puppet when needed...

I made a glove hand for Steve for certain videos I've done with him that really required him to do a bit of action (ala grabbing things, picking things up and putting them back down, that would be impossible for him to do with a rod hand)... I left an open nothing in the center of the seam on the top of the glove to allow his usual hand (with the rod removed of course) to be slipped into the notch, giving the impression that he now has a glove hand.

Maybe you can do something similar into which you can leave an open notch in the stitching of the glove, where you can insert the rest of the arm in, and sew that up, and hopefully, the hair/fur or whatever can hide the seams relatively well.

[spcglider]

I know this isn't going to help much, but here's a little insight in what I've done with transforming Steve from a rod puppet to a glove puppet when needed...

I made a glove hand for Steve for certain videos I've done with him that really required him to do a bit of action (ala grabbing things, picking things up and putting them back down, that would be impossible for him to do with a rod hand)... I left an open nothing in the center of the seam on the top of the glove to allow his usual hand (with the rod removed of course) to be slipped into the notch, giving the impression that he now has a glove hand.

Maybe you can do something similar into which you can leave an open notch in the stitching of the glove, where you can insert the rest of the arm in, and sew that up, and hopefully, the hair/fur or whatever can hide the seams relatively well.

That's not exactly the thing I was looking for, but it does apply to a different conundrum I have: Dwayne Frankenstein. He was originally built with rod hands, but we started writing we episodes with him opening letters from viewers and manipulating stuff on camera. I considered simply modifying the puppet to have glove hands, but your solution might prove more effective!

-G

[D'Snowth]

It would also prevent you from having to build a completely different puppet as well to switch back and forth with.

Speaking of which, I watched "Burger Czar" again last night, that never gets old, lol.

[spcglider]

Thanks! I still like that sketch too.

-G

[yetiman]

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, since it is more made for live performance, where the puppeteers are obvious and unhidden (a la Avenue Q). However, Thistledown Puppets did an interesting stageshow using gloved lower arms/hands on the main Bull character. (see link (http://www.thistledownpuppets.com/blog/category/bull-roanoke/))

It also seems like if you had the entrance for the puppeteer's arms at the elbows, then the arm performer could stand somewhat behind the puppet, while the head performer works below. That would be similar to the Swedish Chef, since Frank Oz did both arms, instead of only one while working the head and having someone else do the other arm (like Ernie). You'd still have a performer's body that you'd have to find a way to hide, though, so maybe that wouldn't work very well...

[spcglider]

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, since it is more made for live performance, where the puppeteers are obvious and unhidden (a la Avenue Q). However, Thistledown Puppets did an interesting stageshow using gloved lower arms/hands on the main Bull character. (see link (http://www.thistledownpuppets.com/blog/category/bull-roanoke/))

It also seems like if you had the entrance for the puppeteer's arms at the elbows, then the arm performer could stand somewhat behind the puppet, while the head performer works below. That would be similar to the Swedish Chef, since Frank Oz did both arms, instead of only one while working the head and having someone else do the other arm (like Ernie). You'd still have a performer's body that you'd have to find a way to hide, though, so maybe that wouldn't work very well...

Thanks for the link! Those are good reference pictures! That seems to be very much like the road I will travel down, but I'd like to try to figure out a way to avoid that dis-jointed look at the wrist. Maybe the shaggy fur will alleviate that somewhat?

Thanks!

-Gordon.

[Blink]

Hi Gordon,

I've made two gorilla puppets with live hands. Here in my gallery (http://www.chensationalpuppets.com/portfolio.htm) and here (http://www.chensationalpuppets.com/news/2009/04/bobo-the-gorilla/).

They both look good on camera with this method.

I hope that helps a little.

- Kanja

[practicecactus]

You mean like this (http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s287/practice-cactus/puppetarmsketch.jpg)?
I've noticed muppets tend to have the elbow of the puppet before the puppeteer's elbow [Didn't really do that enough in my sketch. Just imagine the puppet's smaller =P]. Hard to gauge the size of puppets on screen though. I guess it also depends on the puppet's hand; How short the fingers are and where the puppet's wrist starts...if that makes sense?

[spcglider]

Kanja, that's basically the type of thing I'm talking about, but I was looking for a little more specific info about the angle and location of the entry point for the puppeteer's arm. I get the general set-up of the arm style, but I'm really being persnickety about the on-camera look of the thing. As you know, a subtle difference in construction can make all the difference in the world when the puppet performs. I think I have the start of a working plan now. I've gotten MANY responses, all with eminently useable advice. I would think that this is a great $ opportunity for Project Puppet to publish a pattern for glove hands to attach to your Project Puppet pattern as an alternate for the rod hands!

Practicecactus, that is a CRAZY COOL sketch! And you're right... I'm probably going to be placing the puppet elbow not at the connection point but higher up. I'm still internally debating the situation. Either way, you risk having the glove tube seen on camera at the front end or at the back end of the puppet arm. I guess its just a matter of how you will use the puppet overall and take the least "visually obvious" tack. Maybe I should do a screen test with a mock-up before I commit to glue. LOL!

Oh, and because TVTV is a monster show, imagine the character's gorilla BODY, but with a giant eyeball for a head. You know, kinda inspired by the classic "Robot Monster" movie creature. Very low-rent, 1950's concept. LOL!

Thanks again for all the input, guys!

Thanks again, everybody! I still haven't totally settled on a particular answer, so I'm still listening to options! Bring 'em on!

-G

[SesameKermie]

Using longer fur on the arm might help. I'm pretty sure that Henson used fringe on Dr. Teeth's sleeves to disguise the puppeteer's arm as well.

[D'Snowth]

Thanks! I still like that sketch too.

-GI hope you didn't mind my stealing the "you are what you drink... I think" joke for my old Thanksgiving video last year. :halo:

[practicecactus]

Yeah when you mentioned the 'Popeye' thing I think that might help. If you make the puppet's forearm slightly bigger, that might disguise the puppeteer's arm more?
Also, you know know ya make that extra piece the same? [hard to explain, but If it's Ernie, the extendend piece of sleeve, which you shouldn't see, is the same as his shirt. Same goes for the extended piece for the bottom of a body of smaller puppets. Edit: 'Glove Tube', as you put it] Now I'm making that a dark, different material. Just a personal preference of mine, and I think it might help hide any little flash of the puppeteers arm on screen, or at least help with the illusion a little. Especially if it's a furry arm.
Just my $0.02.

[spcglider]

Thanks for all the input, guys! I appreciate it!

-G

[Keeermit]

I will try and take a picture of my ernie naked so you can see how I did his arms, although its all antron fleece you should get the idea, plus I will try and find a monster puppet which has the same design as ernie. Ernies elbow is just below my wrist :p

[Keeermit]

some pics that may help

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/jbpuppets/PB190007.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/jbpuppets/PB190008.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/jbpuppets/PB190009.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/jbpuppets/PB190010.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/jbpuppets/PB190011.jpg

[spcglider]

Thanks Jarrod! THAT is exactly what I was digging for!

You RAWK! :)

-G