The Muppet Show - Zoot Endings

[Wozza Fraggle]

Hey Guys,
This one is for the Die Hards !

Does anyone actually know the order of the Zoot endings ?

I have one season one Zoot like this -

(After S+W comment, Imposed over the last Orchestra Pit scene)
' ATV(logo) COLOUR PRODUCTION '

' © ATV NETWORK LIMITED MCMLXXVI '

Then it cuts to a light blue Zoot, Green nose, wearing no hat.
With this imposed over it -

' FOR ITC(logo) TELEVISION '
' © Independant Television Coproduction MCMLXXVI '
' Muppet Characters © Henson Associates, Inc. MCMLXXVI '

Then on the end of the Sandy Duncan episode it is like this -

(After S+W comment, Imposed over the last Orchestra Pit scene)
' ATV(logo) COLOUR PRODUCTION '

Then it cuts to -

Green Zoot, Yellow nose, darker blue hair, wearing no hat.
He blows his sax and a bubble comes out and displays white text imposed over Zoot.
' hit! '
HENSON INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION '
' © HENSON ASSOCIATES, INC. MCMLXXVI '

Zoot looks into the air at the bubble and then into his saxophone, amazed.

Ok, if that made sense then you probably know what im talking about.

So guys please respond if you have any episodes with any of these on the end.

Thanks

[Stulz]

The "Original" Zoot endings have the "ITC" overtop.
-They didn't save the footage with out the ITC logo on it. That's why you never see it anymore.

"Bubble Zoot" was used in Syndication when TMS aired on TNT.

"Sax and Violence Zoot" or "Bald Zoot" is the Syndicated version used when TMS aired on Nick. It is also the versin on most of the DVD's

[anathema]

So, can you confirm whether the 'ITC' version was attached to all 120 shows on their first broadcasts? VHS from that era is a tad hard to come by... :)

[Wozza Fraggle]

But there were also more...

I know of two more, One light blue zoot with a hat on, And one Green Zoot with a hat on.

See ya

[Chilly Down]

I wrote an insanely long post on this not long ago. I'm not sure what thread it's under anymore. I just wanted to point out that in addition to the newer "bald Zoot" footage shot on a black background, made for Nickelodeon, there was also a "Zoot with hat" footage shot with him in what actually appeared to be the orchestra pit of the Muppet stage. This ending was probably created for some of the Odyssey channel episodes; you can see it on many of the episodes of the Time-Life series.

Alex, the 'ITC' logo was on all 120 episodes; that's why they had to dub it over with the JHP (Jim Henson Productions) logo. It occasionally was refilmed from year to year; sometimes Zoot would have a hat, sometimes he wouldn't. In fact, they mixed and matched footage from each of the seasons' ending credits as the years went on. Zoot's hat can appear and disappear several times within the same ending credits sequence!

My friend has the tail end of the Star Wars episode taped off of syndication from the late '80s, just before all the redubbing, so it still has the original ITC logo. That kind of thing is so cool to an obsessed Muppet nut like me. ;)

[anathema]

Ok, thanks! Did they use the same shot of Zoot each year, or did that change as well?

[Daffyfan2003]

I've never realzied Zoot had so many different looks. The main ending on most of the videos I have is Zoot just playing the sax and shaking, then looking down at the inside of the sax to see what could have caused this. Either that, or it's pre-empted by the Henson companies logo (another reason they shouldn't say the videos are uncut). I do remember one (I think it was the Paul Simon episode, but I'm not sure) where Zoot blows the sax then looks at a music sheet to make sure he got it right and then nods or something.

[anathema]

It all depends on what's meant by 'uncut'. :) There are multiple 'official' edits of many of the shows out there, prepared by Henson. In some respects, it's like the difference between the original and SE releases of the Star Wars trilogy - the latest version (whatever that happens to be) is the 'official' version.

Endings and opening titles aside, there have been other apparently official re-edits done over the years. So far as I've been able to tell, the original edit of the Joel Grey show did _not_ include the two newsflashes - these were edited in later (and pretty sloppily, too :-) I've also got a copy of this (and the Ruth Buzzi show) which inserts an extra comment from Statler and Waldorf immediately after the closing act. Other cuts: I've got a copy of the Paul Williams show which is missing the backstage scene where Scooter suggests that Fozzie do the 'telephone pole bit', a German copy of the Twiggy show which omits 'In My Life' in favour of 'Lean On Me', and two copies of the Harvey Korman show with totally different recordings of 'Halfway Down The Stairs'. Some of these may have been cuts made by the broadcaster for timing reasons (and 'In My Life' was almost certainly cut for copyright reasons), but not all of them. Actually, the Harvey Korman one shows signs of having been re-edited from scratch at some point.


Back to the endings, I've got recordings of most season 1 shows taped recently from the Disney Channel, all of which have the 'Sax & Violence' ending shot. I also have German-broadcast copies of the same shows, with the ITC logo'd version, and commercial VHS releases with the shot replaced by the current JHC logo. Credit rolls varied as well - most of the copies circulating today have centered credits, but I've got some older shows with left-justified rolls (which include a credit for the guest star). This isn't simply a case of a change in style, as I have copies of the Joel Grey show with both types. I _think_ the left-justified ones may have been the UK rolls, but I'm not sure.

What I'm trying to do is work out what each show originally looked like, and put them back together. There's obviously no point trying to build a 'definitive' copy of some of the shows, since material was added to them later, but I would at least like to see the original closing shots and season 1 titles :-)

[Wozza Fraggle]

Thanks for the input.

But what i was trying to find out was what version of the 'Soot endings' went with which seasons.

I think its safe to say that the first one i mentioned goes with Season One.

And that the HIT! one goes with probably all of th episodes that were shown in foreign countries ?

Screen shots would help this project...

See ya

[Chilly Down]

Sorry, Warrick -- don't know the answer to your question, since I don't have originial copies of the episodes (except for the aforementioned Star Wars ending). I do know (and this will answer your question, Alex) that Zoot was changed at least twice -- there are the two different versions used in Season One, as Warrick originally noted, and there's at least one later one where Zoot is, in fact, wearing his hat.

In response to Daffyfan: Yes, there were two different endings edited onto the new cuts of the episodes. The one that's been called "Sax & Violence" is the one that you described where Zoot (no hat) looks at the music sheet and appears to be happy with the note he played (that was the one used on Nick). The second version, which I didn't see till the Time-Life releases, was where Zoot (with hat) shakes and looks astonished at the note he just played. The second actually recreates the gag from all of the original endings to TMS; the first was actually a deliberate reversal of the gag.

I never figured out what the consistency is (if there is any) in how JHC decided which Zoot clip to use. I should double-check my DVDs and see if it's related to the season or not.

Of course, there were at least 3 episodes that didn't have the traditional Zoot ending at all: the Dudley Moore episode (Animal runs up and does...something to the MAMMA machine), Carol Burnett (she's trying to do her cauliflower routine on stage), and Mac Davis (the orchestra is filled with Beakers). In all three cases, I believe, they dub the black "JHP" logo without Zoot at all onto the end of the episodes. It wouldn't make sense to cut to Zoot, certainly, and of course it's cheaper than refilming it. But I'd still like to know what exactly Animal does to MAMMA, and in Mac Davis' case they still inexplicably keep a closing shot of the original Electric Mayhem orchestra instead of the Beaker orchestra just before cutting to the black logo. Weird.

[Drtooth]

What about when the EM leaves the theater?

[Wozza Fraggle]

Rowlf plays the whole theme tune and then once he has played the last note Him and Nigel both look at the camera.

See ya

[anathema]

In my copy, the very last shot is actually of the EM on the backstage set looking at the camera, with an obviously stuffed Kermit puppet waving from the bannister over the exit. This fades out and the JHP logo is tacked on.

[anathema]

Originally posted by Chilly Down
Sorry, Warrick -- don't know the answer to your question, since I don't have originial copies of the episodes (except for the aforementioned Star Wars ending). I do know (and this will answer your question, Alex) that Zoot was changed at least twice -- there are the two different versions used in Season One, as Warrick originally noted, and there's at least one later one where Zoot is, in fact, wearing his hat.

I never figured out what the consistency is (if there is any) in how JHC decided which Zoot clip to use. I should double-check my DVDs and see if it's related to the season or not.


Yeah, but these are more likely to have been later changes as the company name and copyright holder changed. There was a standard sequence of shots (changed between seasons) which made up the end credits, and it's pretty unlikely that it got re-edited mid-season (those one-offs excepted). All the shows were produced by ATV, so in theory they should all have carried the ATV/ITC logos on first broadcast. Chances are the shot was first changed when Henson obtained the copyright from ATV, and has been updated as the company name changed.

[Wozza Fraggle]

Oh yeah sorry, That is a great shot aswell !
With Kermit frantically waving !

[Chilly Down]

Alex, I think you're getting confused about what I'm saying. While I did talk about the re-edits in the later paragraphs, my first paragraph is all about the ITC ending. I remember specifically the Zoot-with-hat ending from watching it as a child and from my friend's Star Wars tape. The two versions that Warrick described also both had the ITC logo on them.

Also, I'm very confused -- everyone keeps talking about an episode where the EM left the theater. What episode is that? I know there was an episode where they threatened to leave the theater, but they changed their mind by the end of the show. The storyline is shown in The Muppet Show Book. So what happened? Why did the writers have them leave and not come back, since they WERE back in later episodes? Did they continue the story in the next episode? That would seem particularly odd to me, since they knew that the episodes would be shown out of order. If someone could please clear up the mystery for me.

Thanks,

[anathema]

Originally posted by Chilly Down
Alex, I think you're getting confused about what I'm saying. While I did talk about the re-edits in the later paragraphs, my first paragraph is all about the ITC ending. I remember specifically the Zoot-with-hat ending from watching it as a child and from my friend's Star Wars tape. The two versions that Warrick described also both had the ITC logo on them.

Actually they both had the 'ATV' logo on the previous shot.

I'm not disputing that more than one shot was used, I just don't see them using multiple shots _within_ the same season. The second one Warrick mentioned from season 1 carries the 'HIT' copyright rather than the 'ITC' one, meaning that it's a later re-edit, at which point the shot was evidently changed. I've also seen a variant on this where the bubble contains 'ha!'.


Also, I'm very confused -- everyone keeps talking about an episode where the EM left the theater. What episode is that? I know there was an episode where they threatened to leave the theater, but they changed their mind by the end of the show. The storyline is shown in The Muppet Show Book. So what happened? Why did the writers have them leave and not come back, since they WERE back in later episodes? Did they continue the story in the next episode? That would seem particularly odd to me, since they knew that the episodes would be shown out of order. If someone could please clear up the mystery for me.

Thanks,


Kaye Ballard. I don't think any explanation was given for the band's return - the show wasn't big on continuity :-) I've seen various running orders from different countries and channels, none of which are consistent, but I've never found an 'official' order.

[Wozza Fraggle]

My episode with 'HIT!' is a Dutch episode with Dutch Subtitles.
Im thinking that any of the episodes that were subtitled or dubbed may have the 'HIT!' endnig, Or thats what it was intended for.

Because it stands for 'Henson International Television'.


Any more thoughts ?

[anathema]

My German-dubbed copies have the ITC logo on them.

[Wozza Fraggle]

There goes my theory then...


LOL!

[Chilly Down]

Alex, thanks for naming the episode. I do have a complete list somewhere of the Muppet Shows in the order that they were filmed; I'll try to post it here if I can find it again. That will tell us which episode followed Kaye Ballard, and if they ever followed up on it.

[Stulz]

I know they neveer followed up on that story.
Kermit appearently got the band to come back "between episodes" but it's not brought up agian during the show.

[Stulz]

To answer the next question:

The episode to follow #: 23- Kay Ballard was #24: - Mummenschanz.
no band subplot...

Any one else find it odd how on the The TimeLife versions they put the Mummenschanz episode AFTER the Madeline Kahn episode (#33). These epiodes I know, aren't meant to be placed togethert, However if they are "Mummenschanz" should def. come first because it sets up the the plot of Gonzo having a crush on Piggy and in "Madeline Kahn" Gonzo tells Piggy how he's over her.

Just something ODD I noticed

Plus the fact that on the disc/tapes and covers
"Mummenschanz" IS before "Madeline Kahn" but on the back is the actually running order. of "Madeline Kahn" THEN "Mummenschanz".

Did they orinally intend to put them in somewhat of a story arch then forget about it?

[Drtooth]

Well... I can't say I know many of these.. but I do have the Disney released "Meet the Muppets" video. ZSoot (I forgot what color suit he's in) Blows a note from his sax, lifts his head slightly and looks at nothing, and nods a sign of approval, like he's proud of it.

[Stulz]

That "Zoot"is from "sax and Violence"a musical segment featuring Zoot and Mah Nah Ma Nah (Do Do Do Do Do) ..(couldn't resist)

[Wozza Fraggle]

So has anyone been able to come up with some kind of list ?



See ya

[Chilly Down]

Chris, thanks for the info, but now I'm more confused than ever. I have the Mummenschanz episode from Time-Life, and there IS no follow-up. Why on Earth would they do that? Were they planning to make a season-ending cliffhanger, then realized they had no control over its airdate and just abandoned it?

This must be the story from "The Muppet Show Book" where the band is "anklin' ". I thought it had an ending in that book, but then I remembered: Floyd said the band had a new act that was so strange even they didn't understand it. Kermit, somewhat nervously (sarcastically?) said, "Oh, good. I can hardly wait to see it." And that was where it ended in the book. Pretty odd.

I noticed what you meant about Mummenschanz and Madeline Khan. I guessed they moved Madeline Kahn up in the rotation because they figured more people would want to see her (and might turn off the tape by the time Mummenschanz comes around). It does work much better continuity-wise if they kept the original order, though.

I have to see Meet the Muppets again--it sounds like the same Zoot clip used on Nick. I didn't realize Mahna Mahna appeared in any other numbers besides his self-titled one in the Juliet Prowse episode. Were there any other appearances of him in a production number or backstage scene (not counting background appearances)?

[anathema]

There wasn't a 'set' running order to the shows so far I can tell. They get screened in various different orders, depending on the channel and country. Even in the UK, where the show ostensibly ran on network TV, different regions ran the episodes in different orders. The shows were taped in roughly the order of the production codes, although this sometimes varied (for example, I'm pretty certain the Gene Kelly show was the last to be taped, but it has the first production code of the fifth season block).

Floyd's comment about the new act actually refers to the new theme he's written for the show, and that Kermit wouldn't understand it. Have a flip through the episode guide - it's all in there. :)

Mahna Mahna appeared in an 'At the Dance' segment somewhere early in the first season, but it's probably just a background appearance, and I *think* I've seen him in something else as well, but I can't remember where. 'Sax & Violence' comes from the Connie Stevens show, BTW.

As for continuity, well! Scooter's introduction is in the show with Jim Nabors, by which point he's already appeared in at least one other show (if you go by production order). The episode guide at Kermitage has an almost complete list of transmission dates, but I don't know for which channel/country, and it omits Kaye Ballard, Mummenschanz and most of season 2. I'm hopefully getting a more comprehensive list in at some point in the next few months...

[Chilly Down]

Thanks, Alex. I did flip through the episode guide, but it still doesn't explain anything. I can understand it if Floyd was just trying to change the theme, and Kermit wouldn't have it. But the way everyone is talking here, the band LEFT FOREVER at the end of the episode, with Kermit waving goodbye and everything -- and then they were back the next week. Am I the only one who finds that strange?

I know they had other "hiccups" in the continuity, but at least I knew the reasons behind them. Scooter was introduced in the Jim Nabors episode because it occurred to them after they already started production that they should have an "introductory" episode. However, by most accounts the Jim Nabors episode is really not all that good. So they filmed a few more episodes without Scooter altogether, so that one of THOSE could be the first episode. (Not sure how many. Anyone?) In the end, it didn't matter, because it turned out they had no control over the airing order, anyway.

Thanks for the Mahna Mahna information. In case anyone is interested, here's a complete list of taping dates (if not airing dates, as those varied from region to region anyway). Pay no attention to the asterisks; that was done for my own purposes, to keep track of which episodes I have on tape.

Muppet Show Taping Dates
(according to production files)
Celebrity Date (week of)
Connie Stevens #2 Jan 19 - 21,30, Feb. 1,1976
Juliet Prowse #1 Jan 29 - 31, Feb.1, 1976 *
Joel Grey #3 May 18 - 20, 1976
Ruth Buzzi #4 May 25 - 27, 1976
Harvey Korman #10 May 27, 1976
Rita Moreno #5 June 3, 1976 *
Jim Nabors #6 June 8, 1976
Florence Henderson #7 June 15,16, 1976
Paul Williams #8 June 22 - 24, 1976
Charles Aznavour #9 June 29 - July 1, 1976
Lena Horne #11 July13 - 15, 1976
Peter Ustinov #12 July 20 - 22, 1976
Bruce Forsyth #13 July 27 - 28, Aug. 5, 1976
Sandy Duncan #14 August 3 - 5, 1976
Candy Bergen #15 August 10 - 11, 1976
Avery Schreiber #16 September 28, 1976
Ben Vereen #17 October 4 - 7, 1976
Phyllis Diller #18 October 11 - 14, 1976
Vincent Price #19 October 19 - 21, 1976 *
Valerie Harper #20 October 26- 28, 1976
Twiggy #21 November 9 - 11, 1976
Ethel Merman #22 November 16 - 18, 1976
Kaye Ballard #23 November 23 - 26, 1976
Mummenschanz #24 November 23 - 26, 1976 *

Year 2
Don Knotts #25 May 23 - 25, 1977 *
Zero Mostel #26 May 31 - June 2, 1977
Milton Berle #27 June 9 -11, 1977
Rich Little #28 June 14 - 16, 1977
Judy Collins #29 June 21-23, October 19,1977
Nancy Walker #30 June 28 - 30, 1977
Teresa Brewer #46 July 12, 1977
Edgar Bergen #31 July 12 -15, 1977 *
Steve Martin #32 July 19 - 21, 1977 *
Madeline Kahn #33 July 26 - 28, 1977 *
George Burns #34 August 2 - 5, 1977 *
Dom Deluise #35 August 9 - 11, 1977 *
John Cleese #47 August 9 - 11, 1977 *
Bernadette Peters #36 August 16 - 18, 1977
Rudi Nureyev #37 October 18 - 21, 1977 *
Elton John #38 October 25 - 27, 1977 *
Lou Rawls #39 November 1 - 4, 1977
Cleo Lane #40 November 8 - 10, 1977
Bob Hope #45 November 22, 1977 *
Julie Andrews #41 November 23 - 25, 1977 *
Jaye P. Morgan #42 November 29 - Dec. 2, 1977
Peter Sellers #43 December 6 - 9, 1977 *
Cloris Leachman #48 December 6 - 9, 1977
Petula Clark #44 December 13 - 16, 1977

Year 3
Kris Kristoferson/ Rita Coolidge #49 February 14 -16, 1978
Leo Sayer #50 February 21-23, 1978
Roy Clark #51 Feb. 28 - Mar. 02, 1978
Gilda Radner #52 March 7 - 9, 1978 *
Pearl Bailey #53 March 14 - 16, 1978 *
Jean Stapleton #54 March 21 - 23, 1978
Alice Cooper #55 March 28 - 30, 1978 *
Loretta Lynn #56 April 4 - 7, 1978 *
Liberace #57 April 11 - 13, 1978 *
Marisa Berensen #58 April 18 - 20, 1978
Racquel Welch #59 April 25 - 27, 1978 *
James Coco #60 May 2 -5, 1978
Cheryl Ladd #72 May 9 - 12, 1978
Helen Reddy #61 May 9 - 12, 1978
Harry Belafonte #62 November 8 -10, 1978 *
Lesley Ann Warren #63 November 14 -16, 1978
Danny Kaye # 64 November 21 - 23, 1978 *
Spike Milligan #65 December 12 -14, 1978
Leslie Uggams #66 December 5 - 7, 12, 1978
Elke Sommer #67 December 12 - 14, 1978
Sylvester Stallone #68 January 9 - 11, 1979 *
Roger Miller #69 January 16 - 18, 1979
Roy Rogers and Dale Evans #70 January 23 - 25, 1979 *
Lynn Redgrave #71 January 30 - February 1, 1979

Year 4
John Denver #73 April 24 - 26, 1979 *
Crystal Gale #74 May 1 - 4, 1979
Shields & Yarnell #75 May 8 - 11, 1979
Dyan Cannon #76 May 15 - 17, 1979
Victor Borge #77 May 22 - 24, 1979
Linda Lavin #78 May 29 - 31, 1979 *
Dudley Moore #79 June 12 - 14, 1979 *
Arlo Guthrie #80 June 19 - 21, 1979
Beverly Sills #81 June 26 - 28, 1979 *
Kenny Rogers #82 July 3 - 5, 1979 *
Lola Falana #83 July 10 - 12, 1979 *
Phyllis George #84 July 17 - 19, 1979 *
Dizzy Gillespie #85 July 24, October 29 - November 1, 1979
Liza Minelli #86 July 30 - August 2, 1979 *
Anne Murray # 87 January 8 - 11, 1980
Jonathan Winters #88 January 15 -18, 1980 *
Mark Hamill # 89 January 15 - 18, 1980 *
Christopher Reeve #90 January 22 - 25, 1980 *
Lynda Carter #91 January 29 - 31, 1980 *
Andy Williams #94 January 29 - February 1, 1980
Doug Henning #93 February 4 - 8, 1980
Carol Channing #92 February 11 - 16, 1980
Alan Arkin #95 February 11 - 16, 1980
Diana Ross #96 February 18 - 22, 1980

Year 5
Loretta Swit #98 March 10 - 13, 1980
Joan Baez #99 March 17 - 20, 1980
Shirley Bassey #100 March 24 - 27, 1980
James Coburn #101 April 1 - 3, 1980 *
Brooke Shields #102 April 7 - 10, 1980 *
Glenda Jackson #103 April 21 - 24, 1980
Senor Wences #104 April 28 - May 2, 1980 *
Roger Moore April 29 - May 2, 1980 *
Jean Pierre Rampal #106 May 12 - 15, 1980
Paul Simon #107 May 19 - 23, 1980 *
Linda Ronstadt #119 May 27 - 30, 1980 *
Tony Randall #109 June 3 - 5, 1980 *
Mac Davis #110 June 16 -19, 1980 *
Carol Burnett #111 June 23 - 27, 1980 *
Melissa Manchester #108 July 1 - 4, 1980
Gladys Knight #112 July 3 -7, 1980
Hal Linden #113 July 8 - 10, 1980 *
Marty Feldman #114 July 14 - 17, 1980 *
Wally Boag #116 July 28 - 31, August 1, 1980
Debbie Harry #105 August 4 - 6, 1980
Chris Langham #115 August 5 - 8, 1980
Johnny Cash #117 August 11- 15, 1980 *
Buddy Rich #118 August 11 - 15, 1980
Gene Kelly #97 August 19 - 21, 1980 *

[Stulz]

Just suprised how few are actually shot out of order.. Seems like the 1st season was shot out of order then any other season.