Best & Worst of Season 4 [Archive] - Muppet Central Forum

Frogster

11-19-2008, 08:29 PM

Hey gang, while most of us may not have the boxed set, I'm sure there's enough of us who've seen all 96 episodes to weigh in on what they thought of the last 24. Aside from the last three, some of the better episodes, for me, were Sidebottom Blues, Tune For Two, Red's Blue Dragon, Brush With Jealousy, Gone But Not Forgotten, Wonder Mountain, Wembley's Flight, River of Life, Junior Faces The Music, and Ring Around The Rock.

There's not many episodes that I don't enjoy, but the only ones that stick out in my mind that weren't faves are Trial Of Cotterpin Doozer (Feeny and Large Marvin are hilarious, but sometimes the Doozers lack the ability to keep the story interesting), The Voice Inside (Kinda boring and campy), Riddle of Rhyming Rock (Gobo's already had an episode like this, it's called Gobo's School For Explorers) and Mokey Then & Now (kinda feel bad for Mokey getting an episode like this for her last; she should have also gotten Riddle of Rhyming Rock, since she's a poet anyways). What about you guys?

Also, for those of us who don't have the boxed set, how about those of you who do have it mention a bit about what was cool to you that was mentioned in the extras?

DLGabriel

11-20-2008, 12:40 AM

I actually really loved all of Season 4. If I had to pick one episode I didn't love quite as much as the others it would be The Trial Of Cotterpin Doozer. Like you said, sometimes the more Doozer heavy episodes have a bit of trouble maintaining the flow of the other shows. It wasn't bad by any means as in my opinion, Fraggle Rock never actually put out a bad episode. Just not quite on par with most the others.

And while I loved the episode, I agree that The Riddle Of Rhyming Rock might have been a bit more effective with Mokey as the central character than Gobo.

As far as extras in the box set go...

I really enjoyed the exteneded piece with the Gorg actors. The wrap party was also really awesome, but I do kinda wish they would have included it all in-tact, rather than edited and pieced together, but that's really a very minor gripe. Karen Prell was particularly entertaining in it.

The spot on the evolution of the Fraggle theme song was also wonderful. It was very interesting to hear some early, nixed versions (in snippets) of what could have been the theme.

heralde

11-20-2008, 01:43 AM

I saw The Trial of Cotterpin Doozer in one of the smaller DVDs. I don't know, personally I thought the Doozers carried the story well, lol. I think we sometimes have trouble identifying with the Doozers because they're more into group functioning while we (like the Fraggles) are a more individualistic society. In fact I was always impressed at how well the FR writers got this across. :busy::excited:

frogboy4

11-20-2008, 02:27 AM

The doozers have a harder time emoting due to some of the constraints of their puppet size. There are some fantastic moments with them but everything is just so small with them that make it difficult to carry an entire episode. :busy:

I do have the box set and have reviewed it on the other thread. I'm just glad to have the episodes. I haven't seen much of season four so I'm hopping right to that first. I remember talking with Karen Prell and feeling bad for not seeing so many of her favorite episodes. Now I have them all. Wooohahaha. I have missed Red. For me some of these episodes are new. That kinda makes me lucky now. :excited:

I like any episode that explores new territory or even old territory in a new way. I like the scenery and story to move. It's the seemingly more stagnant episodes that cause my attention to wander. Some old timers around here know the one character that I don't particularly care for when the show focuses on them. I will never repeat or admit which one. I do admit my great affection for Boober. I always want to give him a hug. I'd de-germ first! :coy:

Yva Minstrel

11-20-2008, 03:37 AM

I guess I didn't like the Trial of Cotterpin Doozer very much because I have never been a big fan of Large Marvin. I always thought that if they were going to use a fraggle to interact with Cotterpin, that it would be Mokey, since the others all had episdoes with Cotterpin. Gobo has 'The Cavern of Lost Dreams', Red has 'Red's Club' and 'All Work and All Play', Boober has 'Boober and the Glob' and Wembley has 'A Tune for Two' (which is perhaps one of my favorite episodes from season 4). I just thought that an episode with Mokey and Cotterpin would have been nice, but maybe too 'obvious about fraggles not being just for playing.

At any rate, I felt that that episode lacked something because Feeny and Large Marvin are too silly in it and I am not a fan of those two characters. Large Marvin also reminds me too much of my brother...in both name and stature.

I loved the final episode, though, but never got to see 'Sidebottom Blues' as it is not on any of my DVDs.

The other episode I didn't like so much was 'Red's Blue Dragon'. It was a cute idea, but Red already had an episode with a Sea Monster and no one believing her, so this was one of those 'I've already seen this plot' things.

Otherwise the season was quite good. I liked where it went.

Redsonga

11-20-2008, 08:10 AM

I actually sort of like Trial of Cotterpin Doozer..Not for the Doozers (because I am not a doozer fan, at all really) but for the focus on Feeny and Large Marvin...I don't see them as silly at all, in fact I would say they hold up the name of somewhat learning disablied fraggles very well in a sweet way...
And I am a big fan of Red's Blue Dragon, I think that Red has a habit of bumping into magical things and that is cool in itself, plus seeing more of the worlds around fraggle rock is always good...
Really, there is no episode I truly dislike :).
I don't really see stories being sort of kind of like such and such story as being a draw back since the characters sort of by nature get themselves in the same sort of messes just by being themselves :)

I think Mokey Then & Now was a great last episode for Mokey really...After all, what artist wouldn't want to know that deep down the motto of their whole culture in some way made/effected by them? I know I would:D!

heralde

11-20-2008, 09:40 AM

I like Feeny and Large Marvin in that episode; sometimes shows need a shake up where lesser characters take the reigns for a day. And their journey from being kind of slow to being loyally dedicated to helping Cotterpin was very sweet. :)

I've been desperately trying to avoid watching Gone, But Not Forgotten until I get the DVD, hopefully I'll make it, lol.

Drtooth

11-20-2008, 12:21 PM

I like Feeny and Large Marvin in that episode; sometimes shows need a shake up where lesser characters take the reigns for a day. And their journey from being kind of slow to being loyally dedicated to helping Cotterpin was very sweet. :)

Oh yeah... I really do love that one myself, just for those 2. I have it on the Doin' things Doozers Do DVD...

I just love how ridiculously ceremonious the Doozers come off as in that one. I mean, would you want to go to court, about to be banished or punished severely and have them sing a rousing upbeat tune just before they sentence you? The fact that the only time they really seem to cut loose is when they uphold how rigid they are.

heralde

11-20-2008, 12:42 PM

Oh yes, say what you will but the Doozers always have very cool songs (or is that Rev? ;) ).

"Yes we do, yes we do!" :busy:

And you're right, they're at their most passionate when talking about how strict and solid their society is.

RedPiggy

11-20-2008, 08:10 PM

Well, I don't have the boxset. However...

The Riddle of Rhyming Rock was probably the most forgettable. I'd tell you why,

...

but I forgot. ;)

Red's Blue Dragon, while covering the same basic territory as Sea Monster, added some fleshing out to a fairy tale/legend previously mentioned in A Cave of One's Own AND gave Red some empathy and respect for Matt. Readers of my fics know I LOVE expounding upon Fraggle legends.

Boober Gorg is interesting just because although Sidebottom isn't mentioned in it, I can't help but feel he took over when Boober got bonked.

Sidebottom Blues was a nice progression for Sidebottom. We go from an arrogant playful jerk who's willing to freeze his new Fraggle friends in their dreams to a guy who is really upset that Wembley is in danger.

Ring Around the Rock touched me. Ma never really seemed to get her own episode much. I had always suspected she felt lonely, but this ep really drove it home.
EDIT: I'm an idiot ... I'm thinking of Mirror, Mirror. But Ring really DID touch me dearly. I would have loved to attend that remarriage ceremony.

Despite my mild dislike of Trial of Cotterpin Doozer, I actually did like Large Marvin and Feeny in it. I like when underdogs can be heroes for a day.

Mokey Then & Now: fanfic fodder for me :)

I cheered when the Fraggles let Cotterpin sing in Tune for Two. Stick it to the man, er, Fraggle, Cotterpin!

River of Life was great. Pa learns of Silly Creatures and threatens to attack them (I'd LOVE to watch THAT). Boober has some really great scenes. This, to me, is Boober's The Day the Music Died.

Brush with Jealousy I actually didn't care for that much. Seemed like a replay of at least Mokey's Funeral, where she gets upset that others aren't basically kissing her tail. Selfish twit.... (j/k)

Junior Faces the Music WOULD have been superb, had the writers not done a HUGE 180 on the message of that ENTIRE episode in The Gorg Who Would Be King. This episode, as well as the entire series, made The Gorg Who Would Be King seem like Obi Wan's little pep talk on Mustafar where he's been all "Jedi=Good, Sith=Bad" until he faces Anakin, and then it's all "Absolutes are bad". Huh?

Redsonga

11-20-2008, 08:22 PM

Mokey Then & Now is so much with its story it could have made FR get another season or two with hurting anything, the same with Red's Blue Dragon IMHO. If they had not had everything planned to the letter there could have been many spin offs to...*goes back to planning Fraggle Babies*

Oh, and the whole The Gorg Who Would Be King thingie..well that goes into the great crown debate IMHO. Which I'm going to be doing my version of in my FR the movie sequel to Midnight Place idea...Needless to say I am very pro-gorgish culture, one of those things being their kings..I think it is important :). In fact, I would almost say it is more important than doozers....

You know, I just thought of something...in The Gorg Who Would Be King, when they are telling Jr. all that...Cantus isn't there is h....? *runs off to fanfic writing notebook like her pants are on fire*

heralde

11-20-2008, 09:18 PM

The whole king issue is just based on what your own personal opinion is of a monarchy. I have to sort of agree with how they chose to end it on the show. Whether a king is cruel or generous, he is still a ruler. He still rules over other human beings for no other reason than that he happens to be king. And the point of the episode is that people should be free (or at least elect their own leaders who can be voted out in a democracy hehe).

And you could argue Cantus made sure Junior became king just so he would be the one to end the monarchy (Heaven knows Pa wouldn't have!).

Redsonga

11-20-2008, 09:59 PM

Meh, Cantus is the sort I think who would have said something to that effect, even in 'code' if he had felt it was that important IMHO...
I still say that their 'monarchy' was not hurting anything, least of all the fraggles or themselves :P. Maybe how Pa was using his power was bad but I can't really blame that on his title of King exactly, I think it was just...him :P
Oh well, I will save my ideas for the story. It has pretty much written itself now in my notebooks about this ;).

heralde

11-20-2008, 10:07 PM

"Some slavery feels like freedom." ;)

But I would be interested in seeing your story. :)

Redsonga

11-20-2008, 10:16 PM

heralde

11-20-2008, 10:19 PM

I still say nothing they did really has the feeling all at of a slavery like system, just more of a bad person doing bad things..I really think he would have done those things anyway :(. But I'm stubborn like that ;)..After all, for all our 'freedom' a voting system does not give us all the say so we think we have ether once someone is there in a high office...
But then I am very pro-tradition and other olden days things...

Oh I agree that Pa would probably be bad anyway. But a lot of it was based in the idea that he was better than the Fraggles simply because he was "born" king and therefore inherently better than everyone else. And even with a nice king, there is still the implication that he is somehow better than everyone else.

And I agree our system of democracy is far from perfect. Winston Churchhill said something to the effect that democracy is a horrible system, but it's better than every other system out there.

I'm quite traditional myself in many ways so I do understand. There are some things from the past I wish we hadn't lost. But on the other hand, we also made a lot of progress since the past that I wouldn't want to lose. :)

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 02:11 AM

I don't think it has to be one or the other :). I really think old systems can live on and not hurt anything...

RedPiggy

11-21-2008, 07:10 AM

Considering they were really only rulers over themselves, "kingship" didn't seem to affect much. I know where the writers were going with that, but the moral doesn't (to me, at least) match the attitude in the entire rest of the show. Pa wasn't bad because he was king, he was just a guy who put tradition over reality ... though he COULD be generous when he had the choice. One reason in my fics I try to paint a sympathetic picture of him is that he really does have integrity. Had his Gorgish tradition not included being an arrogant jerk to others, he would have been different. He was raised to believe it, and I have been trying to learn to cut guys like that some slack. Pa wasn't TRYING to be bad, like, say, Jareth ... Pa was just misinformed about what was right. And I think he dissed Junior so much because he realized Junior had figured out some things better than him, but he didn't want to admit it because it would make his life a lie. It explains why there are people now who can't handle the world moving on through the 21st century. They were taught what was "right" and they're afraid of being told they lived a lie.

And I'll concede it's possible that Cantus and Marjory wanted Junior to be king just so he could ditch the crown ... but to me it wasn't that evident.

I had a dream the other night about getting proposed to by an emperor ... and I refused ... but I didn't have a thing against HIM being emperor. I just didn't want to be a ruler (which is weird, since I joke all the time that I want to run the world ... mwahahaha).

Frogster

11-21-2008, 04:44 PM

These are some excellent points, guys. Starting with Trial of Cotterpin... I love Large Marvin and Feeny, but the whole 'rescuing Cotterpin from the baby cackler' thing was sorta silly and fake. And yeah, it's difficult for Doozers to carry a story, basically because of the lack of range of motions they can have; not only that, but, IMHO save for the Architect and Cotterpin, they all pretty much act and look exactly alike. I know what you guys might be thinking... "Well, you Fraggles all look the same." BTW, speaking of Boober & The Glob, that lil moment where Cotterpin and Boober are saying that Doozers/Fraggles are the same... interesting way of mirroring what some people think of others in our culture, whether it be with race, gender, wealth, etc. It's moments like those where Fraggle Rock really resonates with its viewers.

Secondly, Mokey. I agree, we've seen "Mokey's Funeral" already, and with that, along with a perfect blend of "Society of Poohbahs" and "Fraggle Wars" this episode pretty much looks like a rerun. Not only do I think she deserved "Rhyming Rock" but since she's dealt with Junior the most, she should have helped him realize what it means to be king in Junior's last centric episode. Plus, it'd be cool to see Mokey leading an upbeat song like "Boss Of Yourself". I will say that, aside from probably Wembley, Mokey was the one who's grown up the most. For me, it's like, in Season 1 she's this ditsy 16-year-old hippy, and when the series ends, not only does the puppet of Mokey look a lot better, but she behaves like a grown female Fraggle.

Thirdly, Junior. I understand how some people may feel that it may seem pointless for Cantus to have Junior play the Kazoo if Junior just throws the crown into our world later on. But, as previously mentioned, maybe that's exactly what Marjorie and Cantus planned on all along. We've seen how Pa (as well as Ma to some degree) rule with little thought to how their actions could snowball and cause problems for other species, and even though Junior may not seem to be the best candidate on the surface, I think both of them knew that, underneath, he would care about other people who are in trouble. As we've seen on the show, their jobs were to bring the 'worlds' of the different species together. Also, as much as I wish we coulda had a Marjorie/ Cantus meeting scene, I'm pretty sure our entire world would have collapsed, destroying the physical integrity of space/time, so it's prolly best to leave well enough alone :smirk:

Also, on "Space Frog Follies" I gotta say that it was somewhat of a clever plot for an episode. The writers could have easily made that a Gorg-themed episode, with Junior not wanting to release the Fraggles. Instead, I think they took a more interesting approach with Wembley and Uncle Matt having a pet frog to give to Gobo as a present. Just some food for thought.

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 05:27 PM

I dunno, I don't think Mokey really changed exactly, even at the start I won't really call her ditzy...I think by the end of the series she was just more sure of herself and showing the things that were already there all along...Of course I have my own ideas about why she was so soft spoken :).

I really don't think Cantus planned that..it just seems too all or nothing (which he always seemed very against, just listen to how he talked, very liquid and give and take IMHO)...I mean why make a show about loving each other even though you may be different and then take away someones culture? I really don't buy it :(.
But then, I hate when other parts of the world go into places that still have kings and then just say 'You're wrong!". If it is not some clearly awful issue like having slaves, and it does not hurt anyone, why not keep it?

Frogster

11-21-2008, 05:40 PM

I dunno, I don't think Mokey really changed exactly, even at the start I won't really call her ditzy...I think by the end of the series she was just more sure of herself and showing the things that were already there all along...Of course I have my own ideas about why she was so soft spoken

Well I guess that, by ditzy, I was sort of referring to her the way Kathryn Mullen referred to her in the S3 bonus features, when she called her, "Mr. Magoo-ish".

Also, I do agree with how you may think that Cantus didn't plan it... but in Honk of Honks, he pretty much ignores Gobo's story about how Doc couldn't see him, when in fact, later on in the same episode, creating the Honk of Honks was Cantus' idea, in a roundabout way, to get Gobo and Doc to interact. Granted, "Junior Faces The Music" and "Gorg/King" aren't back to back by any means, but, for the sake of the storyline, I guess that's what I kinda believe. :coy:

Frogster

11-21-2008, 05:42 PM

OH! I was just thinking about this a few minutes ago. Anyone here notice that Jerry Nelson does the lead character for nearly all the 'worlds' except ours? Gobo Fraggle, Architect Doozer, Pa Gorg (king), and Marjorie?

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 06:18 PM

Well I guess that, by ditzy, I was sort of referring to her the way Kathryn Mullen referred to her in the S3 bonus features, when she called her, "Mr. Magoo-ish".
Well, Mr. Magoo-ish to me is having the very very good luck to be able to not get into trouble even when most people would be a pancake ;). I would call that a talent :D.

Also, I do agree with how you may think that Cantus didn't plan it... but in Honk of Honks, he pretty much ignores Gobo's story about how Doc couldn't see him, when in fact, later on in the same episode, creating the Honk of Honks was Cantus' idea, in a roundabout way, to get Gobo and Doc to interact.

*grins and goes back to writing her own reasoning* :3

RedPiggy

11-21-2008, 06:43 PM

Also, on "Space Frog Follies" I gotta say that it was somewhat of a clever plot for an episode. The writers could have easily made that a Gorg-themed episode, with Junior not wanting to release the Fraggles. Instead, I think they took a more interesting approach with Wembley and Uncle Matt having a pet frog to give to Gobo as a present. Just some food for thought.
Like they said on the comments to the youtube upload of it ... it's also very prophetic.

Pork

11-21-2008, 06:44 PM

Season 4 is great. Just got it recently. I actually thought "the perfect blue rollie" was hilarious. hehehe.

RedPiggy

11-21-2008, 06:48 PM

Best part of that is the song I absolutely adore and learned how to mimic Red's voice from ... Pass It On.

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 09:24 PM

Season 4 is great. Just got it recently. I actually thought "the perfect blue rollie" was hilarious. hehehe.

I love Boober in that episode..really I just love Boober :3 *hugs him*

DLGabriel

11-21-2008, 11:11 PM

Just wanted to chime in with a little insight here...

Many have been diving into the correlation between Junior Faces The Music and The Gorg Who Would Be King about how one kind of blends into the other with Junior playing the royal kazoo and later becoming king of the universe (before dispatching of the crown). I know some may see this as a direct connection seeing as how it was infered that Junior would eventually become king if he could play the royal kazoo on the night of the blue moon. However, to me, Junior Faces The Music really doesn't tie into The Gorg Who Would Be King directly. At least not any more than any other episode ties into another (save for the final two of the series). To me, Junior Faces The Music was about keeping one's word, not so much Junior's eventual rise to the thrown. As Cantus mentioned in the episode, no Gorg before Junior had actually tried to play the royal kazoo before five Fraggle witnesses as legend stated. In other words, no Gorg before Junior had kept their word in that regard.

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 11:16 PM

Pork

11-21-2008, 11:49 PM

I love Boober in that episode..really I just love Boober :3 *hugs him*

Yeah, agreed. I was watching it with my sister (who I am proud to say is now a fraggle rock fan) and we laughed so hard when Wembley first discovers the blue rollie and Boober is like...trying to get a good look at it and like...grabbing for it. Hehe, that made me laugh.:coy:

Redsonga

11-21-2008, 11:53 PM

Yeah, agreed. I was watching it with my sister (who I am proud to say is now a fraggle rock fan) and we laughed so hard when Wembley first discovers the blue rollie and Boober is like...trying to get a good look at it and like...grabbing for it. Hehe, that made me laugh.:coy:

*hee* Boober and his rollies..I can't help but think that he went back to packratting after a while and picked it up again:coy:

Pork

11-21-2008, 11:54 PM

*hee* Boober and his rollies..I can't help but think that he went back to packratting after a while and picked it up again:coy:

Yeah, I can't see someone as obsessive as Boober actually abandoning his secret place of solitude. I'd say he found a new place and started his collections again. I just don't think he'd be able to help it.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 12:13 AM

Yeah, I can't see someone as obsessive as Boober actually abandoning his secret place of solitude. I'd say he found a new place and started his collections again. I just don't think he'd be able to help it.
It keeps him sane :flirt:

getup

11-22-2008, 12:45 AM

season 4 (i'm still not used to it just being season 4, i'm used to 4 and 5) i think had some of the best episodes in the series. towards the end they started to really touch on serious topics though. i was watching disc 18 last night and it was like 3 episodes in a row touched on the subject of death. but they were all great episodes. i used to not be a fan of the trial of cotterpin doozer but now i find it hilarious with feeney and large moron (marvin)...although, i really do hate large marvin. "we didn't discuss underpants!" another episode i never really liked was junior faces the music. i've been reading all of your discussions on the tie-in problems with gorg who would be king...i too don't think they were meant to be tied together either. for one, the continuity was never always accurate with the show. the episodes were not written by the same writer. also, after watching the bonus feature of the season 4 overview, the woman who did write the gorg who would be king said she was asked if she wanted to be the one to write the final gorg episode as it was called. She wrote it with the intentions of basically wrapping up their storyline for the series. She took the approach of junior needing to understand the universe outside of his garden and really see the big picture. all in all i think he threw the crown just so doc and sprocket could find it in the woods and Doc would then become the king of the universe. TOTALLY KIDDING. haha. favorite episode though would be tune for two just because it has the best song that they ever sung, WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF TOMORROOOOOWWWWW...and i don't think The Voice Inside is boring...i think that's one of the better episodes of the series. I also liked the Riddle of Rhyming Rock.

RedPiggy

11-22-2008, 07:39 AM

She took the approach of junior needing to understand the universe outside of his garden and really see the big picture. all in all i think he threw the crown just so doc and sprocket could find it in the woods and Doc would then become the king of the universe.
Despite this being in jest, I really DO like the idea of Junior tossing the crown so that evidence of THEIR existence will be in the human world, though Doc doesn't know what it's for (but he can add to his collection of stuff from La Gorgola). In fact, this is the only rationale I can actually live with.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:02 AM

She took the approach of junior needing to understand the universe outside of his garden and really see the big picture.
The thing is he did not really understand it at the end ether, he just sort of withdrew from it :(. I mean even we did not see anymore of the 'universe' in the end than the gorgs' tiny island of it and fraggle rock (which I don't think truly counts as a part of their kingdom).
I think I would have felt little bit better if the ending had shown us more to..just shown, it would not have even had to have words...:)

RedPiggy

11-22-2008, 12:33 PM

The thing is he did not really understand it at the end ether, he just sort of withdrew from it :(. I mean even we did not see anymore of the 'universe' in the end than the gorgs' tiny island of it and fraggle rock (which I don't think truly counts as a part of their kingdom).
I think I would have felt little bit better if the ending had shown us more to..just shown, it would not have even had to have words...:)
He was still wiser, as Socrates noted that it was precisely because he knew he knew nothing that he knew more than everyone else. :confused:

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 02:06 PM

He was still wiser, as Socrates noted that it was precisely because he knew he knew nothing that he knew more than everyone else. :confused:

I guess I mean that is good and all (I love philosophy, really I do), but why just stop there? Even with the fact that the series was ending? It seems a real shame...*goes back to writing*

heralde

11-22-2008, 08:53 PM

It's just that one difference between a king and a president is that a king is a ruler simply because of his blood; he happened to be born into that family. Nevermind he is no better than any other human being. And he is ruler whether the people like it or not (generous or no). And us regular, non royal people never get a chance to be in charge, simply because of the family we are born to. It's inherently unfair, if we truly believe God created us equal. Or even if you aren't religious, you still believe all people are equal. :)

A president is chosen by people and does not claim to be better than everyone else. He is there to serve (in theory heh) rather than rule.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 09:10 PM

And us regular, non royal people never get a chance to be in charge, simply because of the family we are born to.
But it is the FR world, not ours ;). No one else wants to be ruler..in fact, apart from gorgs, no one thinks that highly of them..So what is so bad about letting them keep the system? It comes with none of the trappings of our worlds ideas in the long run, no slaves, no real war..and with Jr. around as a king, a will to keep it that way I think...
Or even if you aren't religious, you still believe all people are equal.
I believe we are equal, but I also think we are equal even to have different views about the world and how leaders are picked without having to agree on one true 'right' to rule them all...
Besides, marring into a royal family is not above anyone with the right willpower ;). If that is what they really want...

heralde

11-22-2008, 09:17 PM

But it is the FR world, not ours ;). No one else wants to be ruler..in fact, apart from gorgs, no one thinks that highly of them..So what is so bad about letting them keep the system? It comes with none of the trappings of our worlds ideas in the long run, no slaves, no real war..and with Jr. around as a king, a will to keep it that way I think...

The Fraggles don't want to be rulers because they don't want to be ruled, and they extend the same courtesy to others. In the "King" episode they are very eager to point out how they don't think anyone can force anyone to do anything. Even in Junior was a nice king, they wouldn't want one. And they shouldn't have to have one. Especially when, as Junior says, the universe manages to run pretty well by itself naturally. :)

Well remember the Gorgs' system did end up coming with those trappings, with Pa creating and using a bomb. And Pa did intend to keep the Fraggles as slaves in one episode. I don't think we can say that was just because of one particular ruler, and not the system itself. It's like how Communism sounds good in theory, but has never been successfully achieved.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 09:28 PM

I don't think we can say that was just because of one particular ruler, and not the system itself.

I think we can..I really think Pa was just from an older generation where rulers use to do those things. But like our slave system, or beheadings it fell out of favor (no one is saying it was ever a good thing to began with) and such when another generation (Jr.) came along.

The Fraggles don't want to be rulers because they don't want to be ruled, and they extend the same courtesy to others. In the "King" episode they are very eager to point out how they don't think anyone can force anyone to do anything.

But...

1) Truly not enforcing the idea of rulers is letting others be free to rule as they see fit and not forcing another cultures ideas on them when they are low and confused (like Jr. was).
If you get down to brass tacks fraggles actually do have two bosses that are bosses simply because they were born or grew into their roles..The Trash Heap and the World's Oldest. No one voted them in and they are listened to without much question...You could say that everyone wants to, but who is to say a gorg king could not be loved in the same way? :\

and

2) Although the fraggles didn't want rulers Jr. never said that he thought of the fraggles as subjects exactly, and he would have let them be after making friends with them anyway, so I really don't see any harm..I just don't :)

heralde

11-22-2008, 09:32 PM

1) Truly not enforcing the idea of rulers is letting others be free to rule as they see fit and not force their own ideas on another when they are low and confused (like Jr. was).

I'm not in favor of forcing beliefs on others of course. But just because some people may want something, doesn't mean it's good for them or others. ;)

Junior was told his whole life that there would always be someone to boss him around and make him do things when he just wanted to garden and enjoy himself. He didn't know there were places in the world that let you do what you wanted. There are countries in the world today that would still love to find that out.

And again, even a generous ruler is still a ruler. And that flies in the face of the idea that all people are equal.

heralde

11-22-2008, 09:41 PM

If you get down to brass tacks fraggles actually do have two bosses that are bosses simply because they were born or grew into their roles..The Trash Heap and the World's Oldest. No one voted them in and they are listened to without much question...You could say that everyone wants to, but who is to say a gorg king could not be loved in the same way? :\

Well that is true, they do put the Trashheap in a higher position, you're absolutely right. :) On the other hand, it's very obvious the Trashheap is sort of special and higher than the other beings and deserves to be treated as such. The Gorgs are no more special than the Fraggles; they are regular species in the world, and don't need to be treated as better than them.

The World's Oldest is a bit of an enigma. Sometimes they treat him as very important, but even then, it's because he's lived a long time and has experience. (Junior's quite old too of course, but clearly mentally a child). And then other times the Fraggles ridicule TWO for thinking he's so important.

As some have said, there is much inconsistency. ;)

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 09:47 PM

I'm not in favor of forcing beliefs on others of course. But just because some people may want something, doesn't mean it's good for them or others.
The same could be said of the fraggle idea that the only good ruler is none at all :\.
The whole "hammer in the nail that sticks out that way everyone is equal' idea just doesn't appeal to me...I am all for peace but peace should not come at the cost of the only things a culture has to be proud of, to make them..them. However odd, silly, or backward it might seem IMHO...

On the other hand, it's very obvious the Trashheap is sort of special and higher than the other beings and deserves to be treated as such. The Gorgs are no more special than the Fraggles; they are regular species in the world, and don't need to be treated as better than them.
No one ever said he would be ruling the fraggles though, so again, what's the harm?
I actually think they do need it:coy:... *goes back to writing her fanfic*

As some have said, there is much inconsistency.
I actually see all the episodes connecting very well, some are out of order, but they make sense to me :).

heralde

11-22-2008, 09:53 PM

The whole "hammer in the nail that sticks out that way everyone is equal' idea just doesn't appeal to me...I am all for peace but peace should not come at the cost of the only things a culture has to be proud of, to make them..them. However odd, silly, or backward it might seem IMHO...

You don't have to do anything to make sure everyone is equal. It is simply a fact. Despite what anyone tries to do. ;)

I don't think that's the only thing the Gorgs had. They believe in taking oaths seriously and keeping written records of their history and clearly they appreciate music and nature.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 10:08 PM

You don't have to do anything to make sure everyone is equal. It is simply a fact. Despite what anyone tries to do. ;)

And so if they are equal, they all have equal power to decide if they want a king, a queen, a minster, a wise woman, or a holy squash to began with to look up to as their ruler at whatever level they choose :).

I don't think that's the only thing the Gorgs had. They believe in taking oaths seriously and keeping written records of their history and clearly they appreciate music and nature.

So they still can still write, sing, and look at things but their history books and everything around them related to how they write, sing and make promises only serves to remind them of how much faith they once had in their race and how now they will die off slowly with nothing to make them feel that they are special or have something to pass on simply by being them (if they had anyone to pass it to). What a future:cry:

Even if we are equal deep down, we all want that extra something, that special-ness, even if we know it's only a fantasy. IMHO, to me, kingship was that to the gorgs...
*doesn't really mind the idea of real kings and queens in the first place. and would like to meet one someday*
*never realized how much of a gorg fan she was untill now*
*wanders off*

heralde

11-22-2008, 10:16 PM

And so if they are equal, they all have equal power to decide if they want a king, a queen, a minster, a wise woman, or a holy squash to began with to look up to as their ruler at whatever level they choose :).

Yes they do. But they also have the right not to be oppressed or treated unequally (whether they care or not).

So they still can still write, sing, and look at things

There are people who would love those opportunities and are denied them. ;)

but their history books and everything around them related to how they write, sing and make promises only serves to remind them of how much faith they once had in their race and how now they will die off slowly with nothing to make them feel that they are special or have something to pass on simply by being them (if they had anyone to pass it to). What a future

I like the Gorgs a lot too. And I don't think they need to be better than another else in order to be special. Whether Junior is king or not, he is still who he is and very unique and special. We all have that extra special-ness that makes us stand out. And we have to respect that of everyone, not imply someone has it more than someone else.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 10:32 PM

There are people who would love those opportunities and are denied them.

But we're not talking about those people.
This is simply limited to the world of FR, and in this case their kingdom was the center of their culture IMHO, and the loss of that is a true loss I think :(.

I like the Gorgs a lot too. And I don't think they need to be better than another else in order to be special. Whether Junior is king or not, he is still who he is and very unique and special. We all have that extra special-ness. And we have to respect that of everyone, not imply someone has it more than someone else.
But sometimes, I think they do..for all sorts of reasons. And if we like someone enough, what is the harm of supporting their ideas that they're better? Even liking being ruled? In a land were war/money/and slaves is pretty much a thing of the pass to boot?

Golly, I don't know about you, but I would take being ruled over by a gorg and living in their world vs. having total freedom in ours :P.
even we all our 'freedom' here it is still a money class system worst than having a king IMHO...

I'd..have a strawberry field and pay my land tax in pies and play with fraggles *dreams* ^.^

heralde

11-22-2008, 10:37 PM

But we're not talking about those people.
This is simply limited to the world of FR, and in this case their kingdom was the center of their culture IMHO, and the loss of that is a true loss I think :(.

Fraggle Rock was created to be a mirror and inspiration to our world. They aren't separate to me. :)

And if we like someone enough, what is the harm of supporting their ideas that they're better? Even liking being ruled? In a land were war/money/and slaves is pretty much a thing of the pass to boot?

There's nothing wrong with supporting people. But saying one person is better than another is how wars and fighting get started.

Golly, I don't know about you, but I would take being ruled over by a gorg and living in their world vs. having total freedom in ours :P.

I don't think people living in the oppressed parts of our world would feel the same way. I don't think we understand how good we have it in our society. :)

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 10:47 PM

Fraggle Rock was created to be a mirror and inspiration to our world. They aren't separate to me.
I don't think people living in the oppressed parts of our world would feel the same way.

I just mean that even though it is made to mirror our world not every case within the show can fairly be talked about with random real world backing. Like saying that because I feel that reading and singing alone might be an empty life for the gorgs I suddenly don't know how nice (those rights) are to have :\. It's..a bit unbalanced... me thinks... *gasp* Such and such part of the world had a bad leader, that means gorgs should not have any ether -.- Just too all or nothing IMHO :(....

I don't think we understand how good we have it in our society.
I think many of us do..But that does not make us greedy for thinking something is even better. Like the world of Fraggle Rock (which I think would have been fine even with a king) :).

heralde

11-22-2008, 10:56 PM

Like saying that because I feel that reading and singing alone might be an empty life for the gorgs I suddenly am not for real people getting those rights, or don't know how nice they are

Ok, fair enough. :)

even we all our 'freedom' here it is still a money class system worst than having a king IMHO...

Oh I'm not in favor of our money class system in our country either. It's a horrible hinderness on our freedom that is never talked about.

But having a king doesn't mean that would go away. Royal families in other countries are rich and treated special for no reason other than their blood. And not every ruler wishes to spread the wealth to the common people. And even if some royal families do contribute to charity, why should they have more money? More to the point, why should the common people not have as much?

In the old days of England and America, there was a system, not just based on money, but on birth and class. Even if you suddenly got money, you could never hope to be welcomed into the upper class or royalty. Because you simply weren't born that way. It might be nice for some people to be kings. But why should some people be forced to be the peasants?

A movie version of the Cinderella story address the issue of class based on birth as opposed to money quite well:

"Though you work your life away, where you work is where you'll stay."

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:04 PM

But having a king doesn't mean that would go away. Royal families in other countries are rich and treated special for no reason other than their blood. And not every ruler wishes to spread the wealth to the common people. And even if some royal families do contribute to charity, why should they have more money? More to the point, why should the common people not have as much?

Fraggle Rock though=no money. Or, actually, money but no real use for it even if you have it. Even Jr. did'nt seem to care for gold, and seemed like a nice guy, I would not mind his ruler..ship...
Anyhow, I guess I mean, if money is things you can grow in their world, I go to a fraggle hole with a backpack full of seeds, a notebook full of pencils and drawing charcoal and a dream..A dream! *dives into hole and hits head on drainpipe*
OWIE ;.;

Edit: Golly, if that isn't a self insert fanfic waiting to happen O.o

"Though you work your life away, where you work is where you'll stay."
"But if where you are is where you want to be, it's okay, let's have tea.."
Sorry..I couldn't help myself :3

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:05 PM

Money or no, my point is why should some people be made subjects, while others are kings?

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:14 PM

Money or no, my point is why should some people be made subjects, while others are kings?

Becuase someone started the system one day and found that more gets done (for better or for worst) when you have a leader. Like anything it can be used for great good or great evil but by doing away with it all together I think we crush a lot of that history and the good that may or may not be done by the idea...It's a part of humanity I think :)

If nothing else at least Jr. would have been an active king ..ordering around his...pumpkins or something :excited:
Like I said, as being a king is shown in FR I think Jr. would have been just fine, just fine:).
Other than that I love season 4 ^.^

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:18 PM

Becuase someone started the system one day and found that more gets done (for better or for worst) when you have a leader.

Someone started the monarch system because they wanted power. ;)

Of course I'm not saying you can't have leaders. As you say, they get things done. The Fraggles would be lost without Gobo. But that's again based on his personality and expertise that he worked at, not because he was simply born to be the leader. I think it means more if the leader actually earns his/her right to lead. As opposed to simply being born into it. :)

But again, I would be interested in seeing your fanfic (and I would be nice hehe). :)

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:22 PM

Of course I'm not saying you can't have leaders. The Fraggles would be lost without Gobo. But that's again based on his personality and expertise that he worked at, not because he was simply born to be the leader.
My theory is that the first kings (human wise) were actually picked for being like Gobo and that they use to think those talents were carried by blood and later when no one remembered that it became about power....
Actually, Gobo was born to a line of adventurers if we go by where we see his great uncle..so it's not too much of a stretch to say he is a born leader :)

------> My fanfic in bottom link, just started...
I don't remember if you read Midnight Place? It is set after that :).

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:27 PM

Actually, Gobo was born to a line of adventurer if we go by where we see his great uncle..so it's not too much of a stretch to say he is a born leader :)

Well there is that whole nature vs. nurture debate, hehe. I'm sure he was born with these qualities of course. But he also worked at it and chose it. And I'd rather work at my skills and accomplish them, rather than being born to them with no work. ;)

EDIT: Ohhh thanks, I'll check it out. :)

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:31 PM

I think you can be born into a job and still work hard to make yourself and the job even better :). It's only a limit if you see it as one...Who knows what Jr. could have done really? :excited:

Edit: If you have not read Midnight Place yet a better copy is on FF.Net here (http://www.fanfiction.net/~alicorn). Actually, better copies of all my stories are there, here does not let my dyslexia edit enough...

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:38 PM

I think you can be born into a job and still work hard to make yourself and the job even better. It's only a limit if you see it as one

It's a limit to those who weren't so lucky to be born into advantage, even though they have the abilities. That's what's unfair to me. :)

But yes you can born into a job and try hard.

Edit: If you have not read Midnight Place yet a better copy is on FF.Net here (http://www.fanfiction.net/~alicorn).

Cool, and good for you, I've yet to try my hands at FF.net. :)

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:44 PM

It's a limit to those who weren't so lucky to be born into advantage, even though they have the abilities. That's what's unfair to me.

But we'll always have the trouble, even if we had no government anymore..it's human nature I think (or Gorg nature?)..since the days when the only jobs where making fire and hitting things over the head with rocks :coy:

Cool, and good for you, I've yet to try my hands at FF.net. :)

*plugs* I take reveiws from non-members to, no signing in:excited:! I've been a member for ten years now..golly...*leaves topic* ^.^

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:49 PM

But we'll always have the trouble, even if we had no government anymore..it's human nature I think..since the days when the only jobs where making fire and hitting things over the head with rocks

Yes we will always have the trouble. And there's no reason why some should have trouble more than others because of how they are born, especially if they did nothing to deserve it. ;)

It is human nature, but not every part of human nature should be toleranted. :)

*plugs* I take reveiws from non-members to, no signing in:excited:! I've been a member for ten years now..golly...*leaves topic* ^.^

Oh good, I like when authors do that, hehe.

Redsonga

11-22-2008, 11:52 PM

It is human nature, but not every part of human nature should be toleranted. :)
*pokes human nature* *whispers*
I eat it with a spoon, and then I write about it..yes....

Since we are talking about the end of the whole series,
Being a writer for FR must have been so cool:excited:!

heralde

11-22-2008, 11:59 PM

Since we are talking about the end of the whole series,
Being a writer for FR must have been so cool:excited:!

It sounds like it, especially when so much of their work was kept intact. Writers are treated notoriously badly in the industry. And we the audience tend to idolize actors (which is fine hehe) while forgetting the people behind the beautiful words. :)

"How about our writing staff! Without them, I'd have nothing to say!" ;)

--Scooter to Richard Hunt, hehe

Redsonga

11-23-2008, 12:03 AM

Most of all Boober's speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUDQByTUSTI)..the words..his voice...*melts into a crying puddle*

heralde

11-23-2008, 12:08 AM

Oh dear....grrr....I'm trying to avoid spoilers until I can get the set, lol. But I do like what I've heard about The River of Life episode. It's great how the Fraggles, even Boober, start realizing that the universe is much bigger than them. And in the Children of Tomorrow episode too. They go from the first episode of the series saying they are the center of the universe. But by the end of the series they realize it's to their benefit to open up to the Doozers and then the Gorgs. :)

Redsonga

11-23-2008, 12:11 AM

*waves videos over head* But mine are shiiiny :3....
I don't know..I always got the feeling that of the three the doozers were the most unaffected and changed. It could be because I dislike them but they seemed to go right back into their own world and not really add much to anything :P

heralde

11-23-2008, 12:18 AM

Well yeah I mean the Doozers aren't really like the Fraggles in the sense they are more concerned with the group mentality than individuals. It would be wrong of them to get too caught up in the outside affairs if it interfered with their main goals as a society. Their big breakthrough was deciding Fraggles weren't the big frivilous dopes they had assumed they were. And of course Cotterpin casually revealing the Fraggles, Doozers and Gorgs' connection to radishes.

Redsonga

11-23-2008, 07:52 AM

It would be wrong of them to get too caught up in the outside affairs if it interfered with their main goals as a society.
That's a little bit how I feel about the gorgs to, but for my own crazy reasons :)

RedPiggy

11-23-2008, 08:24 AM

(stands up and bows) I deeply apologize to everyone for bringing up a topic that created a life of its own for a couple of pages. ...
(obligatory plug) In the Elder Clan Adventures, I'm contrasting Princess Gwenalot's active leadership style (in the sense that she's always out protecting and stuff) with Fishface's sit-on-your-tail-and-order-Fraggles-around leadership style. It wasn't my original intention, just sorta came out that way.

Well yeah I mean the Doozers aren't really like the Fraggles in the sense they are more concerned with the group mentality than individuals. It would be wrong of them to get too caught up in the outside affairs if it interfered with their main goals as a society. Their big breakthrough was deciding Fraggles weren't the big frivilous dopes they had assumed they were. And of course Cotterpin casually revealing the Fraggles, Doozers and Gorgs' connection to radishes.
They really didn't need to get caught up in it. The Gorgs or humans never bothered them. They dealt mainly with Fraggles, who were vital to their building arrangements, though they liked Sprocket even better. :D The fact that Cotterpin knew a truth that previously only Marjory & co seemed to know shows just how smart and aware Doozerdom was. Their prejudice against Fraggles might just have been a way of disliking their own partying past.

Muppet Newsgirl

11-23-2008, 12:26 PM

Redsonga

11-23-2008, 12:31 PM

It's like they said, it is kind of a bummer that those of us who already have the first three sets are going to have to buy a large box set just to be able to see season 4.

But the behind-the-scenes footage and wrap party footage look awfully tempting (I love the photos posted on the review page, especially the one with Dave Goelz and Richard Hunt mugging for the camera. Is that a bag or something on Dave's head?)

You don't have to, there is always the AUS season 4 which is just as official, only it doesn't have the extras and Sidebottom Blues, but it also doesn't have the scratches on the DVDs;)

(stands up and bows) I deeply apologize to everyone for bringing up a topic that created a life of its own for a couple of pages. ..
No harm done, I wanted to talk about it anyway. I was hoping you would put in your two cents to :). Golly, when did thoughtful peaceful non-spamy debate become a bad thing?:coy: