Copyrighting puppets

[puppetron]

so, i'm (supposedly) desigining and building puppets for a guy who wants to create a puppet sketch show here in Chicago. we're still talking about pricing and such (i want to charge about $360 in labor for each puppet and then about $80 for materials, but he doesn't want to spend that much because it's only in a workshop phase). but anyways, i was wondering how the copyrighting on these guys goes. I assume that the design is copyrighted to me and i can make more if i want, but he gets the puppet and can do whatever he wants with it once it is sold to him. any advice is appreciated, i'm sure there are a lot of you who have come across this issue before.

thanks,
Mary Kate

[TheCreatureWork]

You can always make a copy of your pattern- along with some pictures and mail them to yourself- don't open the mail when you get it :-) the post mark will act as a reference to when you made it. Easy and cheap.;)

[bezalel]

Well I'm certainly not an attorney so don't take this as legal advice, but here's what I know. The first question I would ask is whether you are creating the characters or is the client providing drawings/sketches of the characters they want built. That can make a world of difference. If they are providing sketches and you are merely building puppets of their characters, then you can consider the job a build. They own the copyright of the characters.

If the company is asking you to create characters and build the puppets, then that's a different story. As soon as you put your pencil to the paper, everything you create is protected under U.S. Copyright Laws. You can follow that up by submitting your work to the Library of Congress, although it is not necessary to be protected under the law (it does provide more of a case in court and entitles you to sue for certain things in addition to copyright infringement like attorneys fees). You would therefore own the copyrights to the characters, UNLESS a written agreement was agreed upon and signed by both parties stating that any work you do for the company is a "work for hire". "Work for hire" is a legal term and has a legal definition. The agreement should be done and signed before any creative work begins. Then and only then does the company own the copyright to the characters you create for them.

You can find out more about copyright laws here - www.copyright.gov (http://copyright.gov/).

[puppetron]

thanks guys. I'm doing all of the designing and building, he's merely suggested the kinds of characters he'd like, it's all very vague still, he's in busy producer mode which means i send him emails and voicemails and he doesn't respond to me for days, but i figure i should know this in case he asks.

i assume that the "work for hire" scenario is sort of how it works when you're working for Henson. all the designs and building you do belongs to them. whereas if i'm just selling this guy the puppets, the designs are copyrighted to me and he owns the puppets themselves. he hasn't mentioned the term "work for hire" but then again, he's not a puppet company, just a producer working on a concept.

this is really helpful, so thanks!
Mary Kate

[Was Once Ernie]

Mary Kate,

Before you do anything, get the agreement of who owns what IN WRITING! Don't assume anything. I can't stress this enough.

From someone who's been burned...

:p

[ravagefrackle]

You can always make a copy of your pattern- along with some pictures and mail them to yourself- don't open the mail when you get it :-) the post mark will act as a reference to when you made it. Easy and cheap.;)


NO IT WONT , i have had many discusions with a entertainment and copyright attorney , this will do no good whats so ever!

if you want a copyright then get a real copyright ,

[ravagefrackle]

so, i'm (supposedly) desigining and building puppets for a guy who wants to create a puppet sketch show here in Chicago. we're still talking about pricing and such (i want to charge about $360 in labor for each puppet and then about $80 for materials, but he doesn't want to spend that much because it's only in a workshop phase). but anyways, i was wondering how the copyrighting on these guys goes. I assume that the design is copyrighted to me and i can make more if i want, but he gets the puppet and can do whatever he wants with it once it is sold to him. any advice is appreciated, i'm sure there are a lot of you who have come across this issue before.

thanks,
Mary Kate

you are not charging enough for your time.or your materials, im just guessing since i do not know what your designs look like, but

$360.00 in labor? $80 in materials,

what about a design fee? and transfer of owner ship? if the show takes off, they get all the profits and you get nothing.

are you only paying your self $8 and hour?

you would be better off renting him some puppets , make it clear in a contract the puppets, thier likeness and designs are yours, and thet you are renting him the puppest for a given amount of time to workshop or film thier show.and that atthe end of the agreed upon time the puppets will be returned to you.

if they want to purchase the puppets out right, designs and all , your price needs to go way up.


Sorry to go on a tear here,

but this is the problem when Beginers (and i am only assuming you are new to the industry)are offered work

you look at it as hey , my stuff will be on stage, or on tv, that will get me further along.

it aint so the entertainment industry has a short memory and staffs change all the tiem.

, We puppet designers have no Unions, or Guilds watching our backs when it comes to pricing our work, but look at it this way,

if you were a writer on this show you would make sure you have a piece of the pie comming to you.
(hence the strike , which is affecting alot of us people who are self employed and service the Tv and Film industry, but will see no benifits from this strike)

same for the creator,he wants his cut to

same for the Backers or producers., boy oh boy do they want a cut.


so exactly why would you be willing to give away your time , money , and talent for pretty much nothing?it seems like no one involved is a designer, or fabrictor, or really even knows about puppets for tv.

you need to retain legal council, or at least speak to a lawer who specializes in this sort of stuff.

secondly, By charging so little you are devauling all of us,

Most people in TV,Theatre and to a lesser degree film, have no idea what goes into Puppet creation,

I get people asking me to build puppets all the time, and after going over thier designs, or discussing a original design of my own, they are shocked to learn how much it can cost.Most think....

"Hey its a puppet , how much could that cost , $200 $300, and once our show is a hit, will make a fortune, to heck with the puppet designer"

Do not perpetuate the generalaztion that our work is worth less than a writer, or actor,or a painter, or a fine arts sculptur. you are creating the product they are going to try and sell, for all the writers nice words, and the directors clever camera angles, even the puppeteers funny voice, all the kids will see is WHAT YOU CREATED, and if the show works, when they go to the toy store, its your work that is going to sell the product.

sorry to be so agressive here, but if puppetbuilders, and designers dont start valuing thier work, how do you expect anyone else to?

[Onath]

wow awesome post ravage frackle. Thanks I will remember this post next time I sell a puppet.

[puppetron]

Ravagefrackle,
that was a pretty good post there. and while i do agree strongly with what you're saying, this is my first "big" gig, deep down i know i should be charging more, but it's hard for me to reconcile pricing when i feel like if this falls through, poof, it's back to square one. i mean, i'm not a big name in the industry, not incredibly advanced in my puppet making skills (i've only been building for about 3 years) and he was very clear about not wanting to invest a ton in the workshop stage, while he's still figuring out if the show will work. he did talk about spending more if the show proves to be feasible, which we'll have to talk about more. i looked at andrew's puppet pricing calculator and used it as a guideline for my prices. i'm charging about $18/hr and each puppet takes me about 20 hours to build, hence the $360, and i calculated material cost to be $87 (I did forget about shipping, so when we work out a price i'll have to add that in). i'm trying to reach a happy medium, not undervaluing myself while not scaring him away.

i do like the idea of having a rental fee and then if/when the show takes off i'll make more money by selling him the puppets and/or designing more. there is supposedly another builder from LA working with him and i'm currently trying to get his email so i can ask him how much he's charging for his work.

it may sound like i disagree with you, but i don't. i'm just trying to figure this all out for the first time. thank you all for the advice.

Mary Kate

[ravagefrackle]

i do understand your perdicement, but you need to look out for yourself,

i hear the old"WHEN WE GET MONEY WE WILL SPEND MORE " all the time, it never happens, in the end, only you can protect yourself,

as for your pricing, i do not know what you things look like, simple puppets may not take much time, but since you are designing from scrathc u need to charge a design fee, the time involved in sketching out the characetrs and presenting them, also youll need to work in a clause about alterations, since they will mostlikley want you to change something .

i understand thier desire to not spend money, but you need to not be so trusting that they will take care of you in the end.

[Luke]

Ravagefrackle,
that was a pretty good post there. and while i do agree strongly with what you're saying, this is my first "big" gig, deep down i know i should be charging more, but it's hard for me to reconcile pricing when i feel like if this falls through, poof, it's back to square one. i mean, i'm not a big name in the industry, not incredibly advanced in my puppet making skills (i've only been building for about 3 years) and he was very clear about not wanting to invest a ton in the workshop stage, while he's still figuring out if the show will work. he did talk about spending more if the show proves to be feasible, which we'll have to talk about more. i looked at andrew's puppet pricing calculator and used it as a guideline for my prices. i'm charging about $18/hr and each puppet takes me about 20 hours to build, hence the $360, and i calculated material cost to be $87 (I did forget about shipping, so when we work out a price i'll have to add that in). i'm trying to reach a happy medium, not undervaluing myself while not scaring him away.

My advice to you, as most important than anything else is to have him sign an agreement stating that he is licensed to use the puppets for the TV broadcast of that show only, and anything else, ie merchandising, home distribution and any other licensing rights are excluded. Also have it put in the agreement does not include ownership of the character rights. Last but not least make sure to negotiate a credit in the titles - "puppets by" and your company name. That way whatever you charge you get some free advertising at the least. It is defintely worth the money having a proper lawyer draw up any agreement.

Everything Ravage said is totally valid though, you have to protect yourself as it might be a small local TV show today, but who knows whether it might catch on and be a big hit tommorow.

[bezalel]

You can always make a copy of your pattern- along with some pictures and mail them to yourself- don't open the mail when you get it :-) the post mark will act as a reference to when you made it. Easy and cheap.

NO IT WONT , i have had many discusions with a entertainment and copyright attorney , this will do no good whats so ever!

if you want a copyright then get a real copyright ,

I just wanted to post a bit of clarification here. The following is taken from the Library of Congress' copyright site under FAQ:

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration” and Circular 38b, Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works.

I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?
The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

Personally, I would totally recommend registering your works with the Library of Congress. The cost of registration is $45. Well worth it. You would be able to present a much more solid case if you had to go to court, plus you can sue for attorneys fees.

BUT, know this....that your work is YOUR WORK and is protected under copyright law the moment you create it, even without registering it.


Copyright laws are in place to protect artists, writers, poets, and puppet builders :) and are inherently (since changes made in 1978) on YOUR side. I just don't want anyone to think that their creations do not belong to them and that they are not due their rights to the creations, even if they didn't register their work with the government.

[bezalel]

i understand thier desire to not spend money, but you need to not be so trusting that they will take care of you in the end.

Amen.:eek:

[staceyrebecca]

Bezalel, I was just about the post that.

[MGov]

Puppetron, I just sent you a private message about this.

Edited to add:

I just read this thread all the way through. Probably should have done that before sending the private message.

Now I've sent you three private messages.

It's kinda funny, actually.

[spcglider]

Actually, the way to deal with this situation is to discuss the amount with them in a factual and up-front way.

If they only want to spend $380.00 per puppet, then that's what they should get... a $380 puppet.

I made a custom Blandings Turtle puppet for the Bell Museum of Natural History. They wanted to own the puppet AND the design. So I charged them $2500.00 for the whole package. I designed the puppet from the ground up, I built the puppet using professional materials, I supplied them with a performance for the video they were making, they owned the physical puppet itself, and I gave them the rights to use the character however they'd prefer.

And at that I was probably undervaluing the piece.

If they'd wanted to spend only $380, they'd have gotten a puppet made from an existing pattern out of sweatshirt fleece. No performance, no rights, no special extras (I airbrushed details on the puppet). And the only reason they'd be keeping the puppet is that it was made from materials I don't prefer.

But you gotta remember NOT to under value yourself or your time or your talents. I know sometimes it's hard to look a client straight in the eye and tell them you're worth way the heck more than what they want to pay. I do it every day. But there are economics you really need to observe. Things that are standard in every industry... like marking up your materials. it somehow doesn't seem right, but it is standard in every industry to mark up the costs of your materials. If you're actually spending $80 on materials, you should be charging $160.00.

Are you custom dying the fabrics? That is time. Time is money. You can't just charge them or the time you spend sewing. You'll be out of business in a month. Do you have to travel to get materials? Go to a store? That has got to be figured in to the money as well. That's time and gas. Gotta be in there. Otherwise you are literally giving those things away.

Some people say "doesn't that come out of the hourly $ I charge?" The answer is NO. The money you charge for your hourly rate is the money YOU DESERVE for doing the work itself. if you want to roll your operations budget into your hourly rate, that's fine... but START with your base rate for the work and ADD the operations budget on top of that. NEVER give it away. NEVER.

Oh, and a special note: There is no such thing as a "buddy deal". Never let anyone convince you that they are a pal and you should cut your rate for a pal. Why? Because as soon as you cut your rate for someone, THAT becomes your new rate FOREVER. Trust me on this. They will expect you to cut your rate for every other job that comes up. Don't believe me? Do it once and you'll find out how I speak the truth. I have clients in the ad biz that expect me to charge them rates I was charging back in 1998 because they're "buddies".

When someone asks you to cut your rate for no particularly good reason, simply ask them how much they are cutting their rate for the job. that'll put a little perspective on it for them. I do that to greedy producer types all the time for ad work.

-Gordon

[spcglider]

Arrrgh. stupid computer tricked me into posting twice.

-Gordon

[Teenager's]

Now I feel so guilty for making that Hyena puppet so cheaply.....I'm so sorry Puppetry Community.

(It may sound like I'm mocking people, but I'm not I'm being sincere)

[ravagefrackle]

dont apploigive to much, your young and new to the machinations of the entertainment indusrty, heck, im still trying to muddle my way thru it all.

but i think Gordon,and Pasha and myself, are simply trying to import someof our wisdom and expierence to evryone else,

like evrything else its a dog eat dog industry , and i am happy to make sure that you newbies dont get screwed as much as we have in the past

[staceyrebecca]

Gosh, I'm feeling like a fool for selling the 2 puppets I made (w/a 2 day deadline) to the ad agency for $250 total....Flat out, they get the puppets, they can re-use them as many times as they want for whatever they want. At least, that's what I assume. I mean, they kept the physical puppets. And I felt like I was over-charging them. I think the way I make puppets is a lot more simple than you guys, but still...I have set a standard.

yar indeed.

[spcglider]

Part of the problem is educating your clientele. You have to realize that most of them have an image of puppets in their heads that basically equates any puppet (no matter how complex, well-built, or strikingly designed) as the same as the puppets they hired or their kid's birthday party. The medium of television causes some of this. The Muppets come into their homes on a daily basis for free. Which devalues the craft somewhat. But they aren't really understanding the true nature of the business.

Most folks look at puppets like just a hunk of fabric with eyes. Stuff they do in Brownies or Girl Scouts.

But making a quality puppet is akin to tailoring a fine suit. It takes skill, knowledge, and talent to do it properly. Many people can fake it, but they aren't actually tailoring, are they? And it's up to us to help them understand this and to understand why a quality product is ALWAYS preferrable to a shoddy one... and why that costs what it costs.

We have all been done a disservice by TARGET's ad campaign, "Expect more, Pay less."

-Gordon

[bezalel]

like evrything else its a dog eat dog industry , and i am happy to make sure that you newbies dont get screwed as much as we have in the past

I second that.

And Gordon, you are dead on with the "Expect More, Pay Less" mentality. Billions of dollars are spent to advertise that very thought, or should we call it propoganda. It's that prevailing attitude that makes it hard for any small business, and for the other reasons you mentioned, especially for puppet builders.

It's also the same thought that keeps the large monopolistic companies in business.

I've had people say to me, upon hearing Project Puppet's base price for custom work, "What! I can go to the store and buy a puppet for $20!" And I say, then go to the store and buy a puppet for $20.

I think part of the issue for new puppet builders is that puppet building jobs don't come around too often. When one does, it's exciting...you already start to think how you would build the characters...how they will move...etc., so price is sacrificed for opportunity. Don't be afraid to turn down a job and don't stop building for yourself (and showcasing your work). Constantly consider the long term, looking past the potential job that is right in front of you. A business that loses money on every job it takes, will not be in business for long. So if you want to keep building puppets, even on the side, price your services accordingly, with the long term in view.

[ravagefrackle]

I second that.

And Gordon, you are dead on with the "Expect More, Pay Less" mentality. Billions of dollars are spent to advertise that very thought, or should we call it propoganda. It's that prevailing attitude that makes it hard for any small business, and for the other reasons you mentioned, especially for puppet builders.

It's also the same thought that keeps the large monopolistic companies in business..
Trueer words are raley spoken


I've had people say to me, upon hearing Project Puppet's base price for custom work, "What! I can go to the store and buy a puppet for $20!" And I say, then go to the store and buy a puppet for $20..

Thats what i tell them as well, and then they discover the error of thier ways, and end up spending even more to replace what they bought,lol
Ah Karma


I think part of the issue for new puppet builders is that puppet building jobs don't come around too often. When one does, it's exciting...you already start to think how you would build the characters...how they will move...etc., so price is sacrificed for opportunity. Don't be afraid to turn down a job and don't stop building for yourself (and showcasing your work). Constantly consider the long term, looking past the potential job that is right in front of you. A business that loses money on every job it takes, will not be in business for long. So if you want to keep building puppets, even on the side, price your services accordingly, with the long term in view.

I turn away jobs all the time,thier is no use in burning your creativity out for jobs that will not even pay for the proper time and materials needed.

[ravagefrackle]

Part of the problem is educating your clientele. You have to realize that most of them have an image of puppets in their heads that basically equates any puppet (no matter how complex, well-built, or strikingly designed) as the same as the puppets they hired or their kid's birthday party. The medium of television causes some of this. The Muppets come into their homes on a daily basis for free. Which devalues the craft somewhat. But they aren't really understanding the true nature of the business.

Educating the client is something we all have to do, and rarley does it really help, but stick to your guns.


Most folks look at puppets like just a hunk of fabric with eyes. Stuff they do in Brownies or Girl Scouts.
LOL


But making a quality puppet is akin to tailoring a fine suit. It takes skill, knowledge, and talent to do it properly. Many people can fake it, but they aren't actually tailoring, are they? And it's up to us to help them understand this and to understand why a quality product is ALWAYS preferrable to a shoddy one... and why that costs what it costs.

Just ask how much they spent on Sunglasses, or a Brief case, or thier Laptop, or thier Suits, they buy stuff thats top quality and that lasts


We have all been done a disservice by TARGET's ad campaign, "Expect more, Pay less."

-Gordon
That and walmarts Blue light specials

[staceyrebecca]

it just seems applicable. Have you guys seen buyhandmade.org (http://www.buyhandmade.org)?

I'm really chewing on this a lot. It's easy to tell myself "well it takes me X number of hours to physically make the puppet, & I'd like $x/hour so the amount I need is X plus cost of supplies." It seems there is well more than that that I need to consider.

[spcglider]

I just started another thread about dealing with productions or agencies for puppet building. Please look there for a few words on this subject from me.

http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?p=595274#post595274


-Gordon

[bezalel]

it just seems applicable. Have you guys seen buyhandmade.org (http://www.buyhandmade.org)?

I'm really chewing on this a lot. It's easy to tell myself "well it takes me X number of hours to physically make the puppet, & I'd like $x/hour so the amount I need is X plus cost of supplies." It seems there is well more than that that I need to consider.

It's not only about the time and materials. You are an artist! It's your years of experience. Your knowledge of materials and resources. Your artistic sensibility. Your style that you've developed over the years. Your craftsmanship...and the list can go on.

All of those things are involved and add value to the finished piece, in this case the finished puppet. And to be honest, you'll probably never get paid what all those things combined are worth, even after your dead. :) In my opinion, those things are priceless. But you can recognize all those things and what is actually involved in everything you produce and that should give you a better grasp on the real value of your work. The next thing is to charge accordingly (within reason).;)

[ravagefrackle]

My last thought on the matter

Selling handy crafts is one thing,

Selling A one of a kind piece of art work is somthing else entierley,

craftspeople (AND YES THEY ARE ARTIST AS WELL) have generally come up with aproduct that is easy to reproduce, amd manufacture, they sell them ata price that reflects the cost effectivness of thier business,

Puppets while a craft , are really a diiferent animal,

soem can be very simple.and would sell well at craft and trade shows,

but when u get to puppets for film, theatre and TV its a different animal entierley ,

i do not mean to detarct from the work of Crafters in any way, what they do is an art to be sure, but ist is one tempered with eye on the business side of things, as well as the mass production side .

[Luke]

As a TV writer/producer (don't hate me!) while i pretty much agree with what all the knowledgable guys here said about TV producers and making deals in the industry i'd add that while often giving away your puppets (and often the rights) for the very low prices stated here is way, way undervaluing yourself and your time, profit shouldn't really be your main motivation on your way up the ladder of experience. If you get offered a really sweet deal that you think would look great on your resume it's often going to be a bonus to you in the long run to budget it as economically as possible while still making a fair amount of money for yourself, even if you could be making more on some other project with less exposure. I'm not arguing that you should provide puppets for TV on a budget of a few hundred bucks as i do feel thats way low, but in Stacey Rebeccas case the upside is she has that great advert to put on her showreel tape. As a producer, seeing something like that would make me want to hire her way more than if i saw a few photos of puppets from a craftsperson. Obviously once you're experienced and have portfolios and tapes full of work it doesn't matter so much though, and you'd probably have great contacts anyway. As for contacts, while you shouldn't give anyone too cheap a deal in the promise of repeat work (as turnover is pretty high, shows get cancelled before you know it) it's a good idea to build up a good relationship because producers and researchers do keep contacts books and may well come back to you somewhere down the road. I would also really emphasize the legal aspects of rights etc, it's an important area so don't ignore it. At least make a point of knowing who can do what, even if you're at a stage where you feel it's not a big deal to you.

[Fozzie Bear]

It's a good thing to even have contracts with your friends. Never expect folks are going to be on your side when all is said and done. I've been raked across the coals on this before.

A buddy of mine said think in your mind what you would normally charge for the job, then multiply it by 3 or 4 as that is what the total costs will be, there should be charges for design time, charges for shipping, supplies, and a little extra for expenditures.

[staceyrebecca]

Luke, thank you. Invaluable. A story that kind-of relates... Some friends of mine were travelling to Tronoto to perform at an improv festival. Of course they got stopped at the border & were asked about a work visa. They insisted they weren't working becuse they weren't getting paid & the border officer said, "But you're getting paid in recognition."

While that's no reason to require a work permit, it does put this into perspective a little.


Ok I have more questions...(of course I do)
In the situation where I sold these puppets to the ad agency, *do* the rights go with them? I mean, we discussed them being used for that commercial, but we never had discussed future use. Can they use them in commercials for other companies? TV, etc? When no contract is signed, who retains the rights?

I know that if the Coyotes fired this ad agency, the Coyotes would not have the rights to run those ads. My husband used to be an ad creative, but that's all I could get out of him.

[ravagefrackle]

it's a good idea to build up a good relationship because producers and researchers do keep contacts books and may well come back to you somewhere down the road. .


BUt dont trust them,any further than you can throw them;)

[bezalel]

Ok I have more questions...(of course I do)
In the situation where I sold these puppets to the ad agency, *do* the rights go with them? I mean, we discussed them being used for that commercial, but we never had discussed future use. Can they use them in commercials for other companies? TV, etc? When no contract is signed, who retains the rights?

I know that if the Coyotes fired this ad agency, the Coyotes would not have the rights to run those ads. My husband used to be an ad creative, but that's all I could get out of him.

Excellent question. You will find this document helpful in answering the question - http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

Here's a quote from the publication:

If a work is created by an independent contractor (that
is, someone who is not an employee under the general
common law of agency), then the work is a specially ordered
or commissioned work, and part 2 of the statutory definition
applies. Such a work can be a work made for hire only if both
of the following conditions are met: (1) it comes within one
of the nine categories of works listed in part 2 of the definition
and (2) there is a written agreement between the parties
specifying that the work is a work made for hire.

"Work for hire" or "work made for hire" are legal terms with a specific legal definition. Certain conditions must be met for a work to be considered a "work for hire" under copyright law. If those conditions are not met than the rights by law automatically remain with the creator of the work.

In your case the second condition - a written agreement between the parties specifying that the work is a work made for hire - was not met, and that is at the very least.

[Luke]

In the situation where I sold these puppets to the ad agency, *do* the rights go with them? I mean, we discussed them being used for that commercial, but we never had discussed future use.

Bezazel had an excellent answer. As long as you can prove copyright (that you made them) they would need to come back to you before they could use them again. The reality of it is that they could try to use them again without permission or even realising they need it, and the legal action if you chose to chase them on it might be costly, but i wouldn't worry until anything actually happened. Just make a point of having something in writing next time as these things are far easier to sort out when you do.

... and yes RavageFrackle, trust no-one! lol :halo: :o :attitude:

[staceyrebecca]

So I *do* maintain copyright, but need to prove that I made them (which is easily done as I sign & date all of my work.

I'm not worried about it necessarily. The guys at the agency used to work with my husband at a different agency (which is weird that they found me via other means).

I should do a google search for contract templates & such.

-stacey

[Kuriboh Man]

Okay I'm Confused......why would you want to send letters to yourself. and why couldn't you make like a "Work Cited" type resource from one of those internet pages like Wikipedia? I'm Sorry if this sounds confusing.

[MGov]

The idea of the "poor man's copyright", mailing it to yourself by registered mail, is that, when you receive it back, you don't open it so that there is a date stamp from the post office over the flap. It's supposed to prove that it existed in your possession as of that date.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "'Work Cited' type resource from one of those internet pages like Wikipedia" though I know that Wikipedia has user generated content and therefore wouldn't hold up in court if you had to sue.

[ravagefrackle]

not to cause more confusion, but we covered the "Poor Mans Copyright" thing earlier

and it is a waste of time, it is not something that will stand up in court, if you want a proper copyright then its worth the moeny investing in one,

[Kuriboh Man]

Oh....I see. Sounds like alot of work just to Copyright a Puppet.

[Luke]

Oh....I see. Sounds like alot of work just to Copyright a Puppet.

It always pays to protect yourself, especially when doing anything for film or tv. You could be gambling tens of thousands for the sake of a few hundred bucks legal fee's. You never know when something can hit the big time and people only usually learn after a few bad experiences.

Often legal documents and agreements can be drawn up generically and re-used anyway.

[Kuriboh Man]

Never actually thought of that....now I know what Jim Henson had to go through back in his time.

[wes]

Thank God for this Thread!

I was just ask to make Design and make puppets for a Indoor entertainment company. sort of like Dave and Busters meets Chuckee Cheese. They want a toucan family 4 bird puppets and they want to keep the rights.

Is this normal?

I'm thinking $10 an Hour in a 40 hour week I think i can make 1 bird puppet a week, thats $ 400 for time and i'm thinking $50 in materials. Also once I read this thread I noticed that RavageFrackle mentioned a designing fee, was think $200.

So.....

$400 time
+ $50 materials
------
$450
x 4 Puppets
------
$1800
+$200 desinging fee
------
$2000 Total

would this be to absorbatant, is this a resenable offer from my side of the table?

I was also thinking that if he keps the rights and he turns my idea in to a doll and it makes money, cant i ask for a cut of that, or is that a pie in the sky pipe dream on my part.

thanks every one!

[Onath]

I think I would ask for more $ and hour. $10 an hour wage is kinda rough that doesn't buy much I would go to at least $12 an hour and have you factored in money in case of errors or changes.

[Teenager's]

no. $20 at LEAST.....trust me

[Luke]

I was also thinking that if he keps the rights and he turns my idea in to a doll and it makes money, cant i ask for a cut of that, or is that a pie in the sky pipe dream on my part.

I don't have much of a clue on prices, the puppet builders here have the knowledge on that - but yes, you need some kind of agreement on the licensing rights for the designs as he could put the image on t-shirts, badges, make dolls etc. If you are worried about pricing yourself above his budget you could always offer two options, either a percentage of any licensing profits over time or a one off upfront fee for him to own those rights.

[Teenager's]

Also look at this, because there's a good formula for pricing & time etc. as well as what to talk about.
http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?t=35483

[wes]

I think I would ask for more $ and hour. $10 an hour wage is kinda rough that doesn't buy much I would go to at least $12 an hour and have you factored in money in case of errors or changes.

Thanks, and I will.

no. $20 at LEAST.....trust me

WoW thats what i'm talking about! I think that the more I do, the more i'll feel comfortable with asking $20 an Hour. but I am getting a hang of this pricing business.

I don't have much of a clue on prices, the puppet builders here have the knowledge on that - but yes, you need some kind of agreement on the licensing rights for the designs as he could put the image on t-shirts, badges, make dolls etc. If you are worried about pricing yourself above his budget you could always offer two options, either a percentage of any licensing profits over time or a one off upfront fee for him to own those rights.

We we had a meeting and I'm building the puppets, and designing the kids area witch the puppets will be apart of and I'll get a cut of any merchindice that will be sold form that area.

I feel pretty good about the set up and this is a major step for me and the direction i would like to go!

Heres the Site:ZOO CITY (http://zoocityusa.com/) It opens Mid January, If your close stop by. The Kids part will be named Toucan Land!

Thanks for all the support and help I love our puppetry forum!:)