Thoughts on Kami [Archive] - Muppet Central Forum

spiderman

11-07-2002, 01:04 PM

i just think if they want to be realistic and show someone with HIV, then they should be realistic and take it all the way and show the downside of it and not just some really happy, helpful, muppet who will never face the real issues of HIV/AIDS.

you know what i mean?

i know its a show for kids, so they should just let kids be kids and not introduce issues to them when they have no comprehension of what HIV is.

whats next, a show where they introduce the taliban as misunderstood, really nice people who are just fighting for what they believe in? yeah this is extreme, but come on people, gimme a break

Fozzie Bear

11-07-2002, 01:05 PM

Hiya,

Like many Muppet monster chillun I doubt Kami's Mammy will be seen anywhere.

This character is suffering the disease like many people do: contracting it innocently. Sometimes blood transfusions, being born with it, etc, just happens to be a cause of infection. It doesn't have to come from drugs, prostitution, or other acts.

My suggestion is to check out other websites about HIV prior to writing about this character and learn of the different ways it can be contracted.

By the way, loved your movie, Spiderman. What do you think of my Rubber Chicken acts?

FOZ

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 01:16 PM

If you had read the article, you would note that the intention of the character is to teach tolerance and prevention of HIV in South Africa. There are no plans to bring the character to the United States.

Excerpt:
South Africa has the most HIV-infected people of any nation in the world: Since 1996, the number of cases has doubled to more than 4 million, or 1 in 10 people, according to estimates by international health agencies.

We already had a discussion on the issue that got really heated when someone proposed the character should joing America's cast, so you are not alone in your thoughts. But even extreme evangalist, Jerry Fallwell approves of the puppet for South Africa where the disease needs to be addressed on all levels.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 01:21 PM

in south africa, the adults don't get it innocently. 1 in 9 has AIDS/HIV in africa. the only people that are getting the disease innocently are the children. but the adults are getting it from unsafe sex and drugs. i read a article in newsweek that said that africans believe that if they have AIDS and they have sex with a little virgin child, then the AIDS will magically disappear. they are pretty dumb. i'm just saying, i don't think that Kami's parents got it from birth. chances are, in the continent of africa, they are either prostitutes or drug users, or both. i've checked the facts, cause i'm writing a research paper on AIDS and society for college, and I want to get peoples opinions on a kids show that has characters with AIDS.

what do you think?

spiderman

11-07-2002, 01:25 PM

i hope you had as much fun watching the movie as i had making it. it was tons of fun, and that kirsten dunst is one hot chick, and she's all natural!!!!

watch out for the next installment of my life due out in summer 2004

Wozza Fraggle

11-07-2002, 01:33 PM

Not all of them got Aids because they wanted to have Sex...

and not all from drugs...

See ya

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 01:41 PM

At the moment I think you are a person who likes to inflame people. I'm sure you are a nice guy, but you are coming off rather strong. You may consider settling in and start meeting other members before making such bold statements.

The character of Kami will not have parents (keeping the Sesame tradition) and I believe she contacted the virus at birth. That is the scope of the character - nothing more. It's for kids. But it is needed in a country where the disease is so rampant. That’s it, nothing more.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 01:54 PM

get it from sex/drugs but MOST of them do. of course the muppet character jsut got it from birth, i just think they should explore the whole issue and not just water it down for kids.

and yes, i do like to see a certain reaction when i post. most of these subjects are just kinda boring..lets make it interesting

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 02:04 PM

Being interesting is fine, but offensive behavior will not be tolerated on the board. This is a place for people who love the work of Jim Henson.

radionate

11-07-2002, 02:20 PM

Mr. "Spiderman",

While I'm proud to see that just about anyone can now get into college, I'm very disappointed that someone of your upstanding social skills would try and tackle a research paper of such great depth.

Be aware there are people from all walks of life and all corners of the world here. From "normal everyday Joes" to folks with disabilities, there is one thing we all have in common, our common respect for others.

Please don't try to stir up trouble because you find posts "boring". Delve deeper into the forum, and find topics that interest you. You might be surprised in the responses you'll receive from people.

The internet is an interesting place. Don't perpetuate the stereotype of people hiding behind the shadows of the web to post inane items just because nobody knows who they are or where they are from. Being banned from MC has happened in the past and most unfortunately will happen again I'm sure.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 02:24 PM

i'm not trying to be offensive or anything else. like i said, i'm writing a paper on this issue, and it brings up a very interesting point of what we should and should not subject our children to. i'm just trying to cover all aspects of what people think, and this forum has helped me to see other points of views. i'm sure everybody can tell what i think, which is why i wanted to see what all you guys thought.

it's been interesting to see what people think, so please keep your responses coming

Fozzie Bear

11-07-2002, 02:47 PM

I think this thread is becoming over-heated and folks shouldn't push opinions around too harshly. Keep in mind, it's only opinions. Very few opinions are worth worrying this much over.

Here's what I'm thinking, though. It's a kids' show. Of COURSE you should water it down for kids, but at the same time you can still give the proper information in a watered-down course. You can't be all "tell-all" with kids who won't understand what you're saying most of the time anyhow. I don't think we have to delve deeper into Kami's parent's lives...her story is about HER, and it's not so much a lesson on living with having been born-with HIV, it's about living with HIV and taking care of one's self (I'm sure), so I think the other option is completely out of the question.

I mean, if you think it should be delved into deeper, you should discuss how it could be done on a level that children could understand that would not be offensive to their parents and be educational.

The current course they're sailing seems to be what will work best to me.

FOZ

MuppetQuilter

11-07-2002, 02:59 PM

I think it is dangerous to make assumptions about an entire continent. Africa is the largest continent and is made up of many diverse cultures.

The AIDS epidemic is a huge problem for many African nations. Before making judgements about the character and behaviors of Africans with AIDS, you might want to do some research into the spread of AIDS in Africa and the availablity of medical care and condoms.

Kids are dying. Kids are dying after their grandparents and parents have died of AIDS. Can you imagine what that must be like-- watching your entire family, all the adults who care about you, die of this horrible disease and then having to go throw it yourself, alone, while just a little kid?

In South Africa there is a growing belief that HIV is not connected to AIDS. So people who are HIV+ and trying to come to terms with what the future holds for them, also have to deal with others denying what that future is. The drugs that prolong life and improve the quality of life for people with AIDS and HIV are not as readily available in South Africa as they are in the US. Last figures I saw said 1 in 9 children in South Africa are HIV+. That's kids born with this disease.

If Takalani Sesame can help 1 in 9 South African children come to terms with their life or can help educate even a handful of other kids-- help them see the person and not just the disease, help them learn they can safely be friends with people with HIV-- well, I think that's great! I wish more organizations were willing to take on the wrath of a few Congressional leaders (among others) to try and make a difference in the world.

Kami is a child. She is a child who was born with HIV. Her mother died of AIDS. She lives with a foster mother and is making friends with other Muppets. She is living life with a positive attitude. Her job is to show people they do not have to fear people with HIV and kids with HIV can still have full, productive lives. This is a show for young children. It is not a medical show. South Africans are all too aware of the reality of what dying of AIDS is. Kami is about compassion and understanding and acceptance. She is about life, not death.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 03:58 PM

that was so touching, it made me cry. you deserve some kind of humanitarium award.

gimme a break, i think people really need to be honest and realize how most of the AIDS virus is spread. some people (kids) are born with it, but you people can't accept the fact that most people bring it on themselves because they are stupid and are not careful.

yeah, i feel really bad about the kids, it's not their faults their parents were dumb. i wish we could help the kids.

everybody is getting a little too touchy. i think everybody needs to realize that this isn't Hardball with chris matthews, but a muppet message board

peace out

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 04:30 PM

I'm certainly not trying to be rude here, but who are you to really say that? First and foremost: this is a place where we are mindful of others and treat people with respect.

It appears that you are more interested in stirring things up here than really trying to participate. I hope I'm wrong about that. It's rather presumptuous of you to think that we are a boring place without your enlightenment. Everyone has an opinion here and it is best to be thoughtful of others when stating yours.

There was no tact in your opening post. Likening gay people to prostitutes, condemning a nation of people and those who have contracted AIDS is out of place here and will not be tolerated. On another thread you even belittled a member for being passionate about Sesame Street! Yo, it's a Muppet forum, dude! We are supposed to be passionate about the Muppets! LOL!

We welcome new members here, but it would be best to make connections and find out what this forum is all about before trying to get controversial or "shake things up". Muppet Central has been around for years (here and on Delphi) and there is no need to "fix" the forum because you happen to think it's boring. Hope to be hearing from you in other threads.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 04:56 PM

yo yo i'm not trying to disrespect anybody or be mean. i don't think this board is boring or "needs" me to liven it up. i heard someone say that there was a gay muppet, so i was just wondering if it was true. i didn't know that it just had HIV or the whole story. yeah, i pushed some peoples buttons a little, but i really think i made some valid points as far as the reasoning behind them doing this and where they will take. i'd like to say more, but i don't want to be kicked off this site because i know there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained. as i said before, i design muppet merchandise, so i will be needing some help as far as what you diehard muppet fans like and do not like, what you think would be a good sell and what you think would suck. i'm open to listen to everybody's point, just let me give mine.

i'll tone it down a bit, but i'd appreciate if people listened to what i have too say instead of just jumping down my throat because i might have a problem with something the muppets did.

lets let bygones be bygones

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 05:04 PM

Certainly. I get ya! It's a very hot-button issue and we have some passionate fans around here. Whew, believe me! LOL! The other thread on this subject had to be closed (it got really bad). Anyway, no prob. Miscommunication I guess.

punkNpuppets

11-07-2002, 05:50 PM

what if they DID make a gay muppet on sesame street. nonono, a gay person joins the cast.

ELMO: Your a man and you marry a man? Elmo doesn't understand.
GAY: Well, some men just feel the need to be with another man. Someone who would understand them more than a woman would.
OSCAR: (pops out of can) Sooo, you must be that ***** i've been hearin bout!

sorry if i offended anyone. i just thought it sounded funny...

**Edited by moderator due to an offensive word**

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 06:09 PM

That really is not funny and is the type of thing I was trying to avoid in this thread. I know you didn't mean to be hurtful, but such language and sentiment are not appropriate on this forum. Please be more mindful of others when you post.

spiderman

11-07-2002, 06:16 PM

i thought they already made 2..bert and ernie?

am i alone in this?

I'M JUST KIDDING PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENSE ANYBODY

punkNpuppets

11-07-2002, 08:00 PM

sorry guys...i'm just a real open minded person...with ADD...

punkNpuppets

11-07-2002, 08:12 PM

http://www.muppetcentral.com/cards/sent/sp_sym2small.jpg

frogboy4

11-07-2002, 09:04 PM

I am not upset. I know you meant to be funny rather than insensitive. Lets just move on. :)

Drtooth

11-08-2002, 07:20 AM

FIrstly, it is a kid's show. The thought of Dating and such is down played (though it still exists. Luis and Maria married, and had a babie, and Oscar had a girlfriend named Grundgetta, they must've broken up. It's a grouch relationship I think)

Ernie and Bert just so happen to be roomates in New York, very common since there isn't much housing, and it is pretty expensive (from what I hear). That's like saying that Joey, Ross, and the other guy from F*R*I*E*N*D*S are gay ( I bet they played off theis in some episodes, I don't particularly like Friends). I mean,. Bert once even sang a love song to a woman on his guest appearance on The Muppet Show, and on Sesame, he sang a love song about his girlfriend who was falling apart (I want to hold your Ear).

That stupid independant film Ernest and Bertram DESERVED the law suit it got. Ernie and Bert rule!

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 08:54 AM

Mercy.

Here I go AGAIN!

I wrote a letter about the time of the beginning of the E&B RUMORS to (then) Children's Television Workshop ATTN: Sesame Street Producers who assured me...

1) Ernie would NOT be retired because Henson died, and
2) Ernie and Bert "have not ever, do not now, nor ever will portray a gay couple. They are simply two best friends who show that, no matter how different you are, you can still be friends."

One day I will find that letter and scan it in for proof. Maybe this needs to be a part of the MC FAQ??

I'm going to be SO glad when that rumor is dead.

Finally, I still haven't heard a response to my request from the last post:
"I mean, if you think it should be delved into deeper, you should discuss how it could be done on a level that children could understand that would not be offensive to their parents and be educational."

Laters,
FOZ

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 09:42 AM

Here's a good idea for a new Muppet monster...

Teret's syndrome.

radionate

11-08-2002, 09:45 AM

I think we'd have no problem finding performers for it around here. But since you have Muley, I get first dibs then.:D

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 09:51 AM

Muley would make a great new visitor to SS. He's got a fun personality, a little crazy, overly-outgoing, but keeps himself planted firmly on the ground.

He's always a hit at the RMH and Rock 103 Functions.

But, okay, you get the teret's syndrome muppet. I'll take the Muppet with Split Personalities! LOL!! No, you won't, I will. No, I will. You THINK you will...

*suddenly comes to blows with himself...*

Luke

11-08-2002, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Fozzie Bear
2) Ernie and Bert "have not ever, do not now, nor ever will portray a gay couple. They are simply two best friends who show that, no matter how different you are, you can still be friends."

I actually have some opinions on Bert & Ernie - first of all the ONLY people who ever know what went into the inception of those characters and what they are/aren't is Henson/Oz. People can make guesses though and i agree that they do not portray a gay couple and are a just a couple of friends living together - BUT it is very clear that a lot of camp and black humour is behind the two characters and how they are portrayed, and they do have some stereotypically 'camp' or 'gay' aspects (i'm not saying that all gay people act the same way) in their personalities.

If you look at TV/Comedy at the time, and especially the kind of media people Henson and Oz were hanging around with (i mean Brillstein and William Morris clients) there were a lot of artists who got a cheap laugh out of emphasising 'camp' aspects of their character and it wasn't always gay people who did it. Many a straight comic has tried to act 'gay' (Just look at Niles - David Hyde Pierce in Frasier) - it's just a way to get a cheap laugh and a lot of people find it funny. There are still actors and artists out there today who do it. I think the way some Bert and Ernie sketches have been written have purposely played on this kind of thing and tried to get a laugh from the parents as well as the kids.

Something else to mention too - Henson are STILL doing this, even more so, and totally on purpose. Most of you guys are yet to meet 'The Hoobs' but 'Iver & Groove' are very much characters on a 'Bert & Ernie' level. The character of Iver has a lot of those 'camp' kinda things about him and is very similar in the way he acts to Niles from Frasier. Groove is very much the strong male character. One script even say Iver trying to be a giant and trying on Tula (the females) high heels - as he walked off screen he made a quip that "i wonder if i've got a handbag to match". It's all fairly innocent - just a little camp innuendo that would pass over the kids heads and get a laugh out of the parents but it's definitely a form of comedy that writers seem to like to use.

I don't believe Bert & Ernie are gay, but i also don't believe someone like Frank Oz would say that straight out - you aren't alone wondering if the characters are gay because those hints have been put there completely on purpose for the comedy value to make people question it while they are watching and pick up on those aspects of the characters and find them sweet or funny. It's supposed to be one of those things where the puppeteers have a coy smile and say 'Hmmm - i dunno - what do you think ?' which is what Frank Oz has done 99% of times.

Hays

11-08-2002, 10:11 AM

Many a straight comic has tried to act 'gay' (Just look at Niles - David Hyde Pierce in Frasier)

He's a HUGE supporter of GLAAD, tho like most people, I don't think he "acts" gay in real life.

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 10:19 AM

But I KNOW they aren't.

They told me so.

Bert likes Prairie Dawn...or was that Betty Lou? Then, that woman on TMS. Ernie likes...uh, wait.

Did Ernie ever show interest in a female of any type at all? I don't remember.

FOZMODEE

Luke

11-08-2002, 10:53 AM

When i mentioned Hyde Pierce i was linking him (very clumsily) to my comment that lots of actors emphasise 'gay' characteristics on screen to get a cheap and easy laugh. I hadn't particularly known whether he is gay in real life or not - my comment is solely about how he portrays the character of hetrosexual Niles. If you want to look at another example there's Mathew in Newsradio. Both actors do exactly the same thing - they aren't gay characters but they emphasise quirks in the personality (that some people would associate with gay people) to be funny.

Daffyfan2003

11-08-2002, 10:54 AM

It's interesting how we have three pages of this so fast. I feel I should put in my two cents. Spiderman, I know you're not being rude or trying to offend anybody. You're entitled to your opinion. I guess they wanted to add Kami to South Africa's Sesame Street to show what life was like. About Bert and Ernie, yeah, I've heard rumors about them being gay and people do make jokes about it, but I guess judging from what was previously said here: (Ex: Bert's interest in Connie Stevens, 'I want to hold your ear' song) then they aren't gay. It sort of makes me wonder why Bert would buy Ernie a pink soap dish though. :confused:

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Daffyfan2002
(It sort of makes me wonder why Bert would buy Ernie a pink soap dish though. :confused:

They were out of nifty blue ones...

Drtooth

11-08-2002, 11:48 AM

Pink soap dish does NOT equal alternative life style.

Pink Flamingos don't...DO THEY?

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 12:01 PM

Nah, not pink flamingos. Blue ones, on the other hand...

frogboy4

11-08-2002, 01:13 PM

What I enjoy about Henson’s work is it's abstract quality. We relate to the characters and read our own perceptions into them. That is how they were intended.

They are not gay, they are not straight. They are puppets that we can think of in how we best relate to them. You know, I]to me [/I] (wait for it, this is good) Ernie and Bert are gay. To someone else they are not. No one is right or wrong no matter what the brass at Henson says (they are the ones that gave us skinny Piggy and blue-nosed Gonzo). The one thing that is certain is that they are lighthearted happy characters that should make us smile! Well, except for Bert. LOL! Poor Bert.

spiderman

11-08-2002, 01:23 PM

i take offense that you, as a moderator, would say, and I quote, the muppets "are gay".

if you are a muppet hater then don't be on the site

Drtooth

11-08-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by spiderman

if you are a muppet hater then don't be on the site

This from the guy that puts down Sesame Street viewers over the age of 5? Maaaaaan you are soooo hypocritical!

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 01:33 PM

What he said was;

"to me Ernie and Bert are gay."

Not that they ARE indeed. I personally go based on what JHC says, or CTW says.

Like, Schulz said he only kept the comic strips of Peanuts history as their history, not anything animated, so that's what I also go by. The cartoons are entertaining to me, sure; but, to me per Schulz, the only chronology I pay attention to is the strips. Thus, the little red haired girl was NEVER SEEN!

But this is MY perception. You may have a different one, as would someone else, and folks are welcome to it.

But, I won't have pink flamingos in MY front yard!! :D

radionate

11-08-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by spiderman
i take offense that you, as a moderator, would say, and I quote, the muppets "are gay".

if you are a muppet hater then don't be on the site Um, I hate to assume that you are ignorant, but he meant the term "gay" in a different manner. Not as in "lame".

What exactly were your SAT scores that allowed you into college?

spiderman

11-08-2002, 01:37 PM

all i said was that he said they "are gay" which he did.

end of story.

i design peanuts merchandise too, what would you like to see as a Peanut product?

Drtooth

11-08-2002, 01:37 PM

Don't even bother, Fozzie! Spiderjuevenile is harrassing me lately, and I reported to the moderator. I hope he has the wisdom enough to cut it the heck out!!!!!!!

radionate

11-08-2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by spiderman
i design peanuts merchandise too, what would you like to see as a Peanut product? Out of curiosity, is this "merchandise" licensed? I'm sure one wouldn't be silly enough to go posting on a site that they manufacture merchandise without a license from the company who owns the rights. Especially when there are many people of a board with multiple ties to that company

frogboy4

11-08-2002, 01:45 PM

Why would calling someone gay be hateful? We have many types of members here. Young, old, American, British, gay, straight and more. Henson’s work was about everyone getting along together, not your mean-spirited words. I think I see where the true hatefulness is here and obviously you did not completely read my post.

You have been rude, argumentative and rather schizophrenic since you got here. If this is a prediction of how you act I don't think this board is for you. You claim to have started this thread to "ask questions" but turn around and yell at people for the answers they give. That is not acceptable behavior here. And any type of name-calling will not be tolerated.

spiderman

11-08-2002, 01:46 PM

gimme a break, i don't know you from adam

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 01:47 PM

Since my other hero, Schulz, kicked the bucket on me :mad: :( I have been in contact with his offices. Our cartoonists' association did a cartoon art show dedicated to him and I wanted their approval on our invites and show and was in contact with their product people from Creative Associates, namely Paige Braddock, Erin, and Edna (his secretary). All SUPER nice people. Including Sparky's wife, Jeannie!

I have GOT to go to the new Schulz museum!! But MONEY, the evil creature, keeps me from going!!!

FOZ

Drtooth

11-08-2002, 01:47 PM

IGNORE THIS POST!!! THE DISPUTE IS SETTLED!!! IGNORE THIS POST!!!!

Fozzie Bear

11-08-2002, 02:37 PM

OW! My ears...

*ignores the post despite the hollerin'*

So, what about that Muppet with Teret's? Actually, I heard he got transferred to Crank Yankers...

J/K FOZ
FOMP!

punkNpuppets

11-08-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by frogboy4

to me (wait for it, this is good) Ernie and Bert are gay. To someone else they are not.

so YOU actually think they're gay???

well, the truth is, it's NOT just Ernie and Bert. if there's a duo of two guys, people usually joke about them being gay. people joke about Batman and Robin, Spongebob and Patrick, Beavis and Butthead (even though they laugh at the word 'gay'), etc

frogboy4

11-08-2002, 03:11 PM

I said that such things of an abstract nature are however the particular viewer relates to them. They remind me of gay couples I know. Someone else might see something different (or the opposite) in them and that's valid too. I was not making an absolute.

punkNpuppets

11-08-2002, 08:25 PM

i always think of Ernie and Bert as the TWO STOOGES. But they're like the Three Stooges if you count Rubber Duckie! Bert's like Moe, Ernie's like Curly, and Rubber Duckie's like Larry.

frogboy4

11-08-2002, 09:08 PM

LOL! That certainly works too.

Whatever

11-08-2003, 07:16 PM

sarah_yzma

11-08-2003, 08:02 PM

I don't understand the whole 'gay' thing....(which I hate that word to be used in that context, because I like the other definition much better, it being my mother's middle name) Does no one hear have a really close friend (that just happens to be the same gender) that knows everything about you. I have...I have a very Bert Ernie type relationship with several type of people, and I'm not 'Gay' (which is just a choice for me, I personally, have no problem with that, it's all cool)

muppet maniac

02-15-2004, 11:47 AM

There was this one part from the Steve Martin episode of The Muppet Show where Gonzo tells Kermit about his new act,but Kermit tries to ignore him because he's waiting for Scooter.But Gonzo tells him anyway-a dancing cheese.

GONZO: Oh Kermit, she's a great dancer.

KERMIT: She? It's a female cheese?

GONZO: OF COURSE it's a female! You don't expect me to dance with a MALE do you? That'd look WEEEIRD!

wwfpooh

04-03-2004, 05:20 PM

I REALLY hope that this is a HUGE rumor and that it'll come to pass, as I LOVE the Muppets to bits. :cry:

The people at Daily Hog have made the already touchy issue of HIV in a kid's show even worse by saying that once Kami came to the 'Street, all Muppets have contracted the HIV virus. The ugly article (and hopefully, rumor) can be viewed here: http://www.dailyhog.com/sesame.htm.

WiGgY

04-03-2004, 07:59 PM

Of course that isn't true. How could you even think that was true? It's satire. Obviously bashing those with HIV and sterotyping them as deviants like the person that started this thread. What a morron. (the guy that started the thread, not you.)

Second, I don't think being gay is a choice as sarah_yzma stated. People don't just decide to be gay. It's not like picking sausage over bacon for breakfast. I didn't choose to be straight. Usually psyco religious people (not saying all are psyco, just the psycos do this) say being gay is a choice because if it weren't, then God would have had to have made people gay, and of course that is wrong (to them).