Thoughts on Convincing John

[Saironi]

Since I've done one on Cantus, I figured another on Jim's other recurring character would be good.

Compared to Cantus, who seems to be as wise and mature as he looks, Convincing John is all flash and no substance, looking as though he were struck by lightning, which may be possibly, as when he first appears his tail looks totally stiff and rigid in contrast to the free tails of other Fraggles. It's also likely not a surprise that he's revealed to be a total fraud in his private life, not really being able to make up his own mind. It's quite likely John and his backing singers (who keep his secret) enjoy praise and exposure to those who are only too willing to let someone else do the thinking, possibly under the impression that with influence comes power.

To me, this seems to be why Wembely and Gobo almost choke when he's first mentioned. It does seem a reality that, perhaps his eccentric appearance has some purpose, say in perhaps hypnotizing his "victims" into actually thinking his exagerated horror stories of what happened to Fraggles who didn't listen to him will actually happen to the listener? If you pay attention when he sings "And I promise you, this story is true", it's obviously meant to frighten those who buy the baloney. He is, as Muppet Wiki puts it, "a flashy evangelical preist"; a man who has convinced himself that he and his beliefs/causes is more important than he really is (though in a later episode we find he can be rather indecisive himself) and is most likely looking for wandering souls with no real self awareness to pull into his way of thinking. It's quite possible the Secret Society of Phoobahs allowed him to realize his dellusional dreams of power and influence.

In short, I think I've made it seem like Convincing John is a conartist who enjoys hearing himself speak, manipulating the easily impressed for his own amusement (as he convinced Mokey to wear plastic cups and Red a blindfold clearly for some laughs at their expense) and an antagonist, though some may not be able to see it.

If ya got anything to add, please do.

[heralde]

I don't know why, I've just never thought of Convincing John as a bad guy. Just that he has this weakness and uses it to his advantage. And it seems, only when someone requests it of him.

[Super Scooter]

"Now you eat a doozer tower
And it's pretty as a flower
And a flower's what you dig up in a field.
But that field could have a hole
And you could fall in while you stroll
And then a Gorg could come along to have a meal."

I think he's like those storybook writers who try to scare children into doing good. :p

I'm just kidding, by the way... sorta.

[Saironi]

I'm not saying he's bad, just that he wants everyone to think he's more important than he really is and that his power to convince anyone into doing anything could make other Fraggles a bit uneasy, maybe why "Convincing John is the type of Fraggle no one goes to see".

Think of him like a fox, coyote or rabbit from those old stories; he'll probably help you, but make you look foolish in one way or other and/or want payment in return.

Mokey-Got her wearing cups on her hands.
Rd-Got her to wear a blindfold.

[Emeowrald]

In a sense when it comes to Cantus and Convincing John the two are different sides of the same coin. Like you said Cantus is wise and mature. Also he doesn't have to use much flash either and instead of pushing his beliefs down people's throats he makes it so that those who talk to him have to figure things out for themselves.
Now you have Convincing John who obviously loves having attention, and when someone is convinced to do what John wants John likes that because it makes him feel powerful. I can imagine Convincing John maybe being a bit jealous of Cantus because in a sense Cantus had a greater power because he was wise. Convincing John's power only comes from his ability to manipulate which is something he knows how to do very well. Unlike Cantus, Convincing John does not want others to think for themselves. He wants them to think in terms he feels is correct.
I think that Convincing John was in effect a latently adult character. I know someone here (and I won't mention names) likes to think of his backup singers as his cousins and no more, but if you ask me, I think there was probably a bit more that was going on between him and his singers. I mean you have one guy who lives with three girls. Does that not seem a bit strange to any of you? I know nothing was ever mentioned because it was a kids' show, but still you have to wonder.

[heralde]

To me, I always thought they lived together because they were a group, like a rock band that tours together. I never thought they were related. But it is a kid's show, so they wouldn't go too far in depth, hehe.

[minor muppetz]

I wonder how Mokey got Convincing John to agree to convince the other Fraggles to swear off eating doozer sticks. Could she have convinced him?

[Saironi]

I wonder how Mokey got Convincing John to agree to convince the other Fraggles to swear off eating doozer sticks. Could she have convinced him?Not likely. More likely it was the chance to use his talents on others that made him accept her request. Though, in "The Secret Life of Convincing John", he most likely helped Webley because he was also indecisive and could relate to his troubles.

In his song telling the Fraggles "Don't eat the towers", he clearly casts Gorgs as monsters when he sings "And a Gorg can come along to find a meal". Though it confused me as to why they chose to include "human being", since I doubt they know our species by that name properly. If you listen close, John is obviously saying "Eat the Doozer Towers, and these awful things may as well happen to you as punishment for not listening to me".

[heralde]

Yeah apparently Mokey's a pretty good convincer herself! And John is able to see things from all points of view.

Btw, I love the episode where it's revealed John is a wembler too, and just like Wembley, he also has trouble deciding what side of the bed to get out on. It made him seem more vulnerable.

[minor muppetz]

I just think it's odd that Mokey got Convincing John to agree to get every fraggle (except Traveling Matt, as he wasn't there) to swear off doozer towers. After Mokey releases everyone from their oath, he is convincing them to eat the towers. If I was convincing John, I would have convicned Mokey to stop trying to get Fraggles to swear off Doozer constructions.

[heralde]

I get the impression John performs the gig asked of him at the moment and nothing more. Otherwise, his reputation for being a reliable convincer might suffer.

[DTWolf]

I was surprised to find out in the "Secret" episode that C-John himself couldn't make decisions; it struck me as not really fitting in with the character. But maybe it does. In the episode they say, basically, "He's indecisive because he can see every side of every issue--which also means he can convince people of anything, since he can see a way to defend any given position."

I wonder if in addition to that, the reason he takes these jobs is because he doesn't have to decide at all. Whoever hires him says, "Convince people of THIS," and he does, because he can give himself fully to that THIS and be freed from the anxiety of indecision. The fraggle hiring him tells him what to believe and it's so much easier for him that way.

[heralde]

Right, although that brings up a dark point. Would he ever be able to turn down an offer if it was morally wrong? Maybe that's also why he's considered so dangerous.

Relativism in the extreme, the idea that nothing can be right or wrong. Which means anything could be justified.

Wembley, at least, can tell the difference between right and wrong when it's important.

[Giar Fraggle]

While Cantus is Jim's deep and thoughtful character, Convincing John is his purely entertaining character. Just thinking about him makes me laugh and laugh because he's just so rediculously flashy and hyperactive (and his song is SO CATCHY). He is just the sort of lighthearted silliness that perfectly counteracts Cantus's somber nobility.

[minor muppetz]

I think it's strange that he wasn't used more in The Preacification of Convincing John. His name is in the title, but aside from a few mentions, he only appears in his two musical numbers. We don't even see what Mokey and Red's visit to his cave was like.

For awhile, I wondered if Jim Henson actually did the puppetry, since all of his lines in that episode are sung, and would have been recorded before the episode was tapped. Henson was directing the episode, so he could have just stayed behind the camera while somebody else performed Convincing John to an audio recording. But then I realised that his movements were very similar to the movements of other "wild" Jim Henson characters like Mahna Mahna and Guy Smiley, and I found a post by Terry Angus that pretty much confirmed that it was Jim performing Convincing John in this episode.

[heralde]

Well, I know Convincing John was performed by Jim Henson in his second episode, "The Secret of Convincing John." In the old '80s Muppet documentary "Henson's Place", they have footage of Jim performing him, with Kathy, Richard and Dave doing his back up singers.

[Giar Fraggle]

Besides, it's not completely impossible to direct and act in the same production. Just look at Dark Crystal and MTM.

[minor muppetz]

Besides, it's not completely impossible to direct and act in the same production. Just look at Dark Crystal and MTM.

I know. There are quite a few productions where the director also acted in. And I guess it would be easier to direct and perform in the same production if it was a puppet production, as the performers can see what is going on by looking into the monitors.

Of course, I have read that there was an episode of Welcome Back, Kotter, titled Close Encounters of the Carvelli Kind, that was directed by one of the cast members, but for some reason he couldn't appear on-screen and get a directors credit, so he wasn't in that episode. I have read somewhere that it's because the show was video tapped instead of filmed, and the director had to spend all his time inside a controll room.

[heralde]

I read that about Welcome Back, Kotter as well, in a Nick at Nite guide. I guess that makes sense if the show's recorded "live on tape before a studio audience".

[Super Scooter]

For awhile, I wondered if Jim Henson actually did the puppetry, since all of his lines in that episode are sung, and would have been recorded before the episode was tapped. Henson was directing the episode, so he could have just stayed behind the camera while somebody else performed Convincing John to an audio recording. But then I realised that his movements were very similar to the movements of other "wild" Jim Henson characters like Mahna Mahna and Guy Smiley, and I found a post by Terry Angus that pretty much confirmed that it was Jim performing Convincing John in this episode.

Yeah, I find you can often times tell who is performing a character just from the way they perform the puppet. Jim Henson and Jerry Nelson both have their own style that is somewhat easy to identify. Bill Barretta, too, come to think of it.

If you can't tell from the voice, check the performance!

[minor muppetz]

Well, Henson seems to have both a very distinctive way of performing smooth/ calm characters and a distinctive way of performing wild/ crazy characters. I can't really tell any certain styles for other characters, though.

[heralde]

We talked about Richard Hunt's performing style on the RHLC; he would often do a double take or a sort of tilt of the head. After awhile you can pick him out.

[Super Scooter]

We talked about Richard Hunt's performing style on the RHLC; he would often do a double take or a sort of tilt of the head. After awhile you can pick him out.

Oh, I have noticed that, too! Richard's can be less obvious than others, but he adds his own thing all the time.

I've said this before, and Fozzie Bear recently pointed it out in another thread, but Jerry's puppets tend to mouth less sylables than any other. The Henson punch is very evident there. It works great, and it sets him apart from anyone else. It's also a lot more subtle than a lot of people.

Bill Barretta's characters move faster than anyone else's, I think. There mouths move faster, more of the words are enunciated precisely, but he has this perfected to the point where the mouths don't look like they're just flopping around, which is always the worry when doing this.

[minor muppetz]

I wonder if Convincing John was always meant to appear in multiple episodes, or if he was originally intended to just appear once and became so popular that he was brought back a few times. Or if maybe a writer came up with more ways to use him.

I noticed that Convincign John's first two episodes have his name in the title. I thought this was strange for his first appearance, as he isn't really too major. He just had two major scenes, and was mentioned quite a bit in the first half. I wonder if the writers meant for him to be mysterious (perhaps only appearing when he's putting on a show). Interestingly, Gobo and Wembly were both frightened when they heard that Mokey was going to ask Convincing John for help, and Red told Mokey that Convincing John was a fraggle that nobody ever comes to see, but when he performs, the Fraggles don't seem to be very afraid of him being around.

I wonder if the orignal plan was to have him appear in one episode, appearing as little as possible, and then have him return and be revealed to be indecisive.