Why don't most people like "Muppet Treasure Island"?

[muppet_fan_1]

Persoanlly I loved the movie! mainly because it was the first Muppet Movie or Muppet anything I ever saw. IT was what got me attracted to the Muppets in the first place. I'm not dissing on anyone for NOT liking it...I just want to know why.:(

[Lu775]

Everyone I know likes it.
Who are these wierdos who are telling you they don't?
:)
ah well, each to his (or her) own

[Drtooth]

Like it? I loved it!! It was one of the few post "Rocky Horror" things that Tim Curry did that was entertaining.

[Gonzo]

Hiya Megan,

I'm in Utah too--so are "Dr. Bombay" and SuperGrover/Travis....there are more of us around than I thought, eh?

Anyway, I personally loved "Muppet Treasure Island," but I also know a lot of people who didn't. Their main problems with it seem to be that the Muppets are playing other characters, and not themselves---i.e., Fozzie Bear isn't as dumb as the Squire Trelawney character he's playing, and so there isn't much "new" development between the characters. It also came out while Disney was still trying to own the Muppets, which freaked a lot of the old-timers around here out. Including me. Sometimes. But I still liked the flick.

I think it was an excellent movie, with some good music and hilarious moments, and I enjoyed it a whole lot more than I did "Muppets From Space."

Quinnnnnnnnnnnnn

[muppet_fan_1]

Hey thanx a lot for all your responses. That was just one of those questions that needed to be answered. I thought it was one of mankinds greatest mysteries but "Gonzo" helped clear it up. That makes a lot of sense. Thanx again!

[Jessie]

The only reason it erked me was of the annoying kid in the movie. But I loved the rest of it. (We've got cabin fever!)

[frogboy4]

I guess I would be seen as ome of those people with a dissenting opinion on Muppet Treaure Island. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy it and I believe it so be the best film of what I refer to as "the second trilogy", (The Muppet Movie, The GreatMuppet Caper and The Muppets Take Manhattan being the first trilogy). It's hard to beat the Jim Henson films, but it did beat one of them in my view.

I suspect that many of the people who have panned Muppet Treasure Island probably grew up on the first trilogy and find the post-Jim films to be somewhat inferior. I would have to agree with that. It isn't that the second trilogy films aren't good, it's just that Jim was the center of the Muppets and so many things changed after his death.

I'd rate the Muppet films in almost chronological order. This is just my opinion:
1 The Muppet Movie (the original, the classic and cameos galore)
2 The Great Muppet Caper (the best produced Muppet film ever, great musical numbers)
3 Muppet Treasure Island (a noble attempt at retelling a classic)
4 The Muppets Take Manhattan (not as entertaining as the first two in the original trilogy)
5 The Muppet Christmas Carol (a bleak, dark, but interesting return to films after nearly a decade's absence)
6 Muppets From Space (a terrible mess, but interesting attempt to show the private side of the Muppets and the film debut of Pepe, okay)

I do find it weak that they remade two classic tales rather than just making them Muppet movies, but many people disagree with me. Many people also find Muppets From Space and The Muppet Christmas Carol to be their faves. Eeek! I don't get it, but 'to each their own' I guess. Got to respect the opinions of others. :)

So to sum it up, Muppet Treasure Island is my third fave, but I also find it to be quite inferior to the first two Muppet films. You've seen them, right?:D

[Jessie]

AHH! MCC is my favourite Muppet Movie! I found it so witty and touching. Don't you tear up when Kermit returns home after Robin (I mean Tiny Tim) dies?
But I agree, MFS was a mess. Hulk Hogan, okay.
*Work hard and be constructive! It is the American way! (Hey, Sam, pssst) Oh. Ahem. It is the BRITISH way.*

[frogboy4]

MCC just didn't seem Muppety to me. It was interesting and different (and I guess the Muppets are known for being interesting and different) but I can't see it as one of my faves. It didn't seem right.

I remember seeing the original Muppet Movie when I was very little (showing my age). :) I guess a fan's preferences for these movies can sometimes coincide with which one was the first they saw. I could be wrong, though. I am betting that MCC was the fist Muppet film you saw or viewed in the theater. There are many in the MCC camp and any Muppet film is a good Muppet film! Well, MFS did make me lose faith in humanity for a week, but it plays much better on video. LOL! That's another story.

[Jessie]

You're right! MCC was the 1st muppet movie I saw. I guess you're right--we tend to stick with the "classics" according to which ones are classics for us. I didn't see the originals like MTM until much later, and I guess they were sort of ahead of my time in terms of the guest appearances. My parents like those best though.
*You're a little absent minded, Spirit.*--*No, I'm a large absent-minded spirit!*

[dan]

I saw the Muppet Movie in the theater when I was little and loved it. I watched it again last night actually.
Muppet Treasure Island and Christmas Carol don't come anywhere NEAR being as good as the first three movies to me. I LOVE the Muppets, but I'm not even going to buy them when they come out on dvd. (Although I did sign the petition for them to be in widescreen) Those films just disappointed me like crazy. No Rowlf, Scooter, band. And I know all about Jim and Richard, so don't give me the reasons why those characters weren't there.

The Muppets playing other characters aren't half as interesting as when they are themselves.

I HATED that kid in MTI. Oh man.

And I don't think you can have any kind of a good Muppet movie where Kermit and Fozzie never interact(MCC)

But I LOVE the first 3 and MFS was okay. At least I laughed a little.:)

[frogboy4]

I really agree with most of that. I really prefer to see the Muppets play themselves. And the Kermit-Miss Piggy, Kermit-Fozzie dynamics have changed much since the death of Jim. I really feel that has some part in why they don't have much valuable screentime together these days. I miss Scooter and Rowlf too.

MTI and TMTM run pretty head-to-head with me, but MTI wins out in my view. TMTM just seemed to be of less quality than the first two films and MTI had some interesting bits. That did annoy me too so we agree on that.

All Muppet films pale in comparison to the first two. They really are the most mature and well crafted films of the series in my opinion.

[Gonzo]

Jamie,

Just wanted to say I agree with your order of favoritism in the 6 Muppet flicks, although I do usually rank TGMC above TMM, just because it's so much FUN to watch!

Regarding it being "pretty weak" for the Muppets to make movies based on classic books, I think it's completely natural for the Muppets to be the ones to do it--from the very beginning, they've done parodies of fairy tales, classic literature, etc., and the big screen adaptations seem a completely natural outgrowth of that. I also remember reading that these were projects that Jim was originally contemplating when considering the Muppets' return to the big screen.

Of course, now that those are done, I'm hoping for some sort of Renaissance that can overcome the damage done by Muppets From Space, and we can have more stories with the Muppets being "themselves," and we can get some more nice character growth, development, and some funny stuff.

Quinnnnnnnnnnn

[Fozzie Bear]

Hiya!

Well, as a puppeteer who prefers that Muley is regarded as his own individual self (I get so mad when people refer to me as Muley...he's much better looking than me!!), I think one of the things about MTI and MCC is that folks forget that it isn't Steve playing Kermit being Kermit or Frank playing Fozzie being Fozzie; it's the individual personalities known as Kermit and Fozzie in a PLAY (practically) PERFORMING characters, not being themselves.

MCC was more a Michael Caine film starring the Muppets, and I think that's where some of its glory was lost...plus it was overseen by Disney, right? (Boy oh boy, am I gonna get it for THAT line...) :D

The great thing about Muppets From Space to me was that we were back to Kermit being Kermit, but I don't know what was up with Fozzie...he wasn't much himself hardly (though the Rain coat and hat in the shower was funnee). I felt a loss with the cameos, especially the Hulk Hogan cameo which will really date the film (which prior films--excuse the clothing and hair styles--aren't really dated). I also was disappointed that there were no original musical numbers.

I think we're probably going to see things heading back in time with the way the JHC and its writers treat our Muppet friends. Once they get Janice, Scooter, Dr. Teeth, Piggy, Fozzie, and a few others revoiced, we'll be back to normal. I just can't see why it's taking them so long to do it. After all, I'm available for hire, and I'm sure there are millions of others, too.

That's all I have to rant about. Wonder who's gonna bite me for that Disney statement, tho! LOL!

FOZ

[Thog]

I remember when the Muppet Movie came out in 1979. I made my parents take me to see it 5 times. And to this day it's still my fave. I agree with Frogboy about growing up on the first 3 movies. I think that I was at just the right age when the muppets were still very popular.

BTW: Wasn't MCC orignally going to be a made for tv movie?:confused:

[frogboy4]

Quin
Although the Muppets have always done parodies in shorter projects, I found it a little tiresome for the characters to keep up the charade for an entire 90 minutes. If Jim had helmed the projecs, maybe they would have worked better, but I stilll stand by my preference of non-book movies. The Muppets should have enough clout to demand an original screenplay. And the fact that these Muppetized-remakes were back-to-back made it all the more disappointing, but I did enjoy them. I feel they would have played better as television movies.

Kev
I agree that the Muppets need to find their way back to what they were and find their "new direction" from there instead of tossing aside all of their history and becoming bland and trendy as in MFS. They were just trying too hard - I felt Grouper was behind the changes! LOL! We need our classic characters back. We all apreciate Jim and Richard, but it's time for their characters to return in full force.

Thog
Yeah, I'm glad that I grew up when I did. I was just the right age to appreciate the Muppet classics first hand! You know, even when I was a kid I opted for The Muppet Show over Sesame Street (there were too many non-puppet parts in SS those days).

[Jessie]

Ahem. I know everyone is going to attack me for this...but I guess the reason why I liked MCC so much was that the muppets were playing other people, yet they still brought with them some of their own characteristics. I don't really like Fozzie (go ahead and shoot me, :0( I'm sorry but I just don't. I've really tried to convince myself that I do but it doesn't work) Perhaps its because the first time I really saw Fozzie was in MFS and the whole "I need to go to the little bear's room, mom says 'no exceptions'" thing kind of annoyed me. So the fact that he was FozzieWig in that movie was cool, in my opinion. Maybe if I had seen the movies in the proper order I would like him more. I do like him a little more in the oldies though.

[frogboy4]

Eeek! Okay - I must state that the Fozzie in Muppets From Space was the Stepford Fozzie! That has been a major topic of discussion on the board. All the characters in MFS were flat characatures of themselves. To judge anything about the Muppets from that misguided film would be a mistake. To get who Fozzie is you would need to watch classic episodes of The Muppet Show. I have met one person in my life that didn't like Fozzie, but to me he's like that person who keeps trying no matter what anyone else says and that's a good thing. :) I feel that in the Muppet pecking order he is just as important as Miss Piggy, tieing her for the number 2 spot. As a purist I really wish people would see these films in order. Have you seen them all?

[EmmyMik]

Well, I am going to pop in here and offer my two cents.

Of all of the Muppet movies, MTI is my least favorite. It just doesn't offer me anything. The Muppets have already played other characters, so that's not new. The songs aren't spectacular (they're good, but not enough to make me get up, reach over and pop the tape in my VCR), and then there's the humor. It's funny, but again, not enough to make me "un-lazy".

I don't own any Muppet DVDs yet, but if I ever do, this will be the last one I buy, if at all...

[frogboy4]

Well it is technically the second last Muppet movie DVD release so it will be among the last bought DVD for even the die hard fan. Seriously, I get your point, but I can't see how MFS was any better? There were no original songs and most of the jokes (aside from Pepe's) fell pretty flat.

[EmmyMik]

Seriously, I get your point, but I can't see how MFS was any better? There were no original songs and most of the jokes (aside from Pepe's) fell pretty flat.

You know, that's a good question. I don't even know why I rate MFS over MTI. But when it comes down to MTI and MFS, MFS is usually the one that goes in the VCR, and MTI collects dust...

[frogboy4]

How about the "classic three" - TMM TGMC TMTM?

[Warrick]

I think the only reason i would choose Muppets From Space over Muppet Treasure Island is because we get to see alot of Classic Muppets in the Boarding House, And Scooter makes a cameo.
Oh and Pepe ofcourse...


But on the whole i think Muppet Treasure Island is better than Muppets From Space.

See ya

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by frogboy4
How about the "classic three" - TMM TGMC TMTM?

TGMC is my favorite Muppet movie. I love the songs, and it's rather silly. For me that make it fun to watch (although I'm not saying that the other movies aren't "fun", it's just with this movie I'm constantly giggling or smiling). Plus I think some nostalgia is involved. When I was little, I was not a big fan of the "classic Muppets" (but I loved the Muppet Babies, go figure), but this was the only Muppet movie that I would watch.

Coming in at a close second is TMM. It's funny, and has great songs. Plus it has that whole "classicy" feel. But somehow it comes in second.

TMTM is last in the "classic movies", but I'd probably rate it 4th overall (behind MCC). The songs are good, and it's funny, but when I watch it, it just feels like something is missing. Plus, I think it suffers from "reverse nostalgia". That is, when I was little, I did not like this movie. In my mind, I actually used this movie to show why I didn't like the "older Muppets". But now I've "grown up" (I don't think I'll ever really "grow up" :) ), and I'm probably too stubborn to let it move up to number 3 overall. I can just be weird like that... :)

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by *Warrick*
I think the only reason i would choose Muppets From Space over Muppet Treasure Island is because we get to see alot of Classic Muppets in the Boarding House, And Scooter makes a cameo.
Oh and Pepe ofcourse...


But on the whole i think Muppet Treasure Island is better than Muppets From Space.

See ya

You know, I've basically given up trying to figure out why I like MFS more than MTI. For me, that's just one of the mysteries of the universe...

:)

[Jackie]

I too like MFS better than MTI...I think if the two were combined...like with original songs in MTI with the funny Muppety style and jokes in MFS it would make one awesome movie.

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by Jackie
I too like MFS better than MTI...I think if the two were combined...like with original songs in MTI with the funny Muppety style and jokes in MFS it would make one awesome movie.

Plus pirates. I'm sure a few pirates wouldn't hurt.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

:)

[Jessie]

I have never seen any of the Muppets Tonight stuff, a little ahead of my time.

As for the Classic Muppet movies, I have the DVD of the Great Muppet Caper and the VHS of The Muppets Take Manhattan. MTI? What does that stand for...?

I like Fozzie in older 2.
*Kermit...what does B.S.C stand for?...I read the one with Dear Abby in it."* LOL...

[Drtooth]

Actually, I do like Muppets From Space. In fact, I've got a great idea for a post.......

[frogboy4]

MTI stands for Muppet Treasure Island. Eeek! you don't have The classic Muppet Movie? I really feel it's the best of the series. Have you seen it?

[Fozzie Bear]

Originally posted by JessieHeart
Ahem. I don't really like Fozzie (go ahead and shoot me, :0( I'm sorry but I just don't. I've really tried to convince myself that I do but it doesn't work)

:( "SNIFF!! SNIFF!!"

Haven't you ever seen the original movies, but even more importantly, haven't you ever seen any of the original The Muppet Show episodes?? Fozzie really is one of the greatest Muppet characters, but since Frank Oz has kind of bowed out of the picture, he hasn't had much to say or do, and his few lines haven't been much in the personality of Fozzie Bear.

Get you some copies of the original Muppet Show...uh...show, and you'll see that it's worth liking the Bear.

Still kinda sad,
Foz

[frogboy4]

That's exactly what I was thinking. The bear is only second to the pig (and I tend to think they are equals). He is part of the majic missing from the Muppets. Poor Foz. He is the uncrushable spirit!

[Fozzie Bear]

I hope Jessie can get The Muppet Movie. Not only is it the quintessential (?) classic, but it is such a great, inspirational film.

JESSIE, dear friend of my heart (who has a cool Tinkerbell flitting avatar)...Tell everyone you know that you must have TMM, that it is very important to you to have it, because it is such a must-have for the Muppet fan.

On the other hand, ignore the video "Hey, You're As Funny As Fozzie Bear." Please.

Later,
FOZ

[frogboy4]

Eeek! What was with that series of kid vids with Fozzie and Kermit. I think they were released under the direction of Jim. It always surprised me because the Muppet Show cast was always meant for an adult audience. Those shows could have easily been done by the sesame cast.

I was thinking about the Muppet cast. Kermit is the center, Piggy's to the left and Fozzie is the right hand bear. Gonzo is a little more left of center than the rest (as usual) and followed by Animal, Rowlf and Scooter in that order. Do you think that's generally right?

[Fozzie Bear]

Frogboy...

"I was thinking about the Muppet cast. Kermit is the center, Piggy's to the left and Fozzie is the right hand bear. Gonzo is a little more left of center than the rest (as usual) and followed by Animal, Rowlf and Scooter in that order. Do you think that's generally right?"

Right, but I always say Fozzie before I say Piggy. Of course, I would.

Later,
FOZ

[frogboy4]

Yeah, the more I think about what's missing from the Muppets, I'm beginning to believe that it's even more than just the strained Misss Piggy/Kermit dynamic. I think the Fozzie-Kermit team has been nonexistant for quite some time. He barely appeared in MCC, was featured in MTI, but certainly not Kermit's right hand bear, and just wandered around the background of MFS picking his nose.

You know I don't really care who voices the Oz characters anymore, they need to return full force. They've sounded a bit strange the last decade anyway. Bring back Fozzie Bear!
;)

[dwmckim]

Aw come on now...how can you say Fozzie's a "right-hand" bear when we all know it's

Bear LEFT (right frog)!:D

...and actually even though i felt the 80's was a horrible time for Classic Muppet fans because up until JHH there had been too much emphasis on the kiddie stuff when the audience that had grown up with The Muppet Show was growing up and the focus was going backwards, i found (most) of the 1988 interactive videos to be rather charming...keeping in mind they were more for the kids. "Neat Stuff" could actually have done well as a new series.

[frogboy4]

Do you mean the 80s or 90s? Up until the mid 80s the Muppets were still for a more mature audience. I believe that the late 80s and 90s began to kiddify them.

[Fozzie Bear]

Originally posted by dwmckim
Aw come on now...how can you say Fozzie's a "right-hand" bear when we all know it's...Bear LEFT (right frog)!:D


HAAAAAAAA!! WOCKA WOCKA!!!!

FOZ!!

[dwmckim]

I meant the 80's. Yes, whenever there were classic Muppet stuff, it was generally pretty intelligent and well written - but they became few and far between.

Yes, there was the last season of The Muppet Show, two Muppet Movies in the first part of the decade, but essentially what had happened was you had kids that grew up with The Muppet Show entering their teens and the next regular Muppet project was a kid's show, Fraggle Rock (a very intelligent multi-layered kids show that stands heads and shoulders above most others from the decade - but a kids' show nonetheless.) Classic Muppet stuff basically came about once a year in the form of a special. Then came ... THE BABIES! The bulk of the time the classic characters were in the spotlight, it was in their moppet Muppet form! Then we saw the Classic characters in their adult puppet form for a very short time (thankfully) in the Little Muppet Monsters attempt. There were wonderful specials throughout the 80's - but you had to wait a year for them and hope that it WAS a classic Muppet special and not a Bunny Picnic or something. Those who grew up with the Muppets had to "grow out of them: by and large because there was hardly anything left for them - until Jim Henson Hour which put them back in the classic edgy for-adults-mainly-but-children-can-join-in-the-fun-too mode.

That's essentially what i was referring to.

[frogboy4]

I was referring only to the Muppet Show cast in the last statement. I tend to do that because I find them to be "The Muppets" I guess because of the title of The Muppet Show and subsequent movies. Does anybody else feel that way? Just wondering.;)

Back on topic, I really wouldn't peg the "kiddification to the entire 80s. I would have to say it claiming it for the second half would be more correct in my mind. By your inclusion of the Fraggles, then we'd have to include Sesame Steet too and that changes the arguement entirely. I believe the Muppet Babies came along in 85 right? Or at the earliest late 84. That would pretty much chop the decade into equal halves and I really think the two Muppet (TMS cast) films that came out in the 80s and the last year of TMS hold enough weight to keep the entire decade from being labeled as a kiddiefied Muppet era. The second half - sure. Just my thoughts though.:)

[Jessie]

I'll find a copy of TMM so I can see Fozzie at his best as it were, but where do I find copies of old Muppets Tonight episodes?

[Jessie]

"I was thinking about the Muppet cast. Kermit is the center, Piggy's to the left and Fozzie is the right hand bear. Gonzo is a little more left of center than the rest (as usual) and followed by Animal, Rowlf and Scooter in that order. Do you think that's generally right?"

Once again (and I know this subject has been beaten to death) but another reason why MFS stunk was because Clifford? (Clifford? Okay, I can't think of his name at the moment--you know the purple guy who has the dreads and reads his mail and is like, "Ooooo...Shanaynay") was Kermit's new right hand man. It just seemed...out of place. Why was he even there?

[Fozzie Bear]

DON"T get Muppets Tonight, cause that was right after Jim died practically, no Richard Hunt or Frank Oz really, so Fozzie isn't that big of a deal on that show.

You want to get copies of "The Muppet Show". Post in the topic "Wanted and Trades" to see if you can swap some copies with someone; OR you can order the Time/Life series.

Yes! Get TMM, very important film.

Later on!
FOZ

[Jessie]

I'm confused--I thought Muppets Tonight and the Muppet Show were the same thing?

[frogboy4]

Clifford was hardly in Muppets From Space so I certainly can't say he ruined the film, but since he was in Muppets Tonight it was neccessary for him to make a brief appearanc. I do think it was a mistake for Clifford to push Kermit out of the spotlight in MT, but I eventually came around to enjoying him. I just wish there'd been more Kermit.

It's good to see that you'll be watching some classic Muppet Show episodes! Muppets Tonight is really not a good representation of Fozzie because he is not on it much. I have seen all the episodes, but I don't have dubbing capabilities at this time. I am sure someone around here does, though. There were some good bits, but nothing near TMS.

[Fozzie Bear]

The Frogboy's right.

Muppet Show was back in the 70's; Muppets Tonight came along right after Jim Henson died, in the 90's. They didn't feature hardly any of Jim, Richard Hunt, or Frank Oz's characters durnig Muppets tonight because, of course, they weren't there (as per my knowledge).

The Muppet Show is the original and the best, it is the show which for 5 years introduced us to Kermit, Fozzie, Piggy, Rowlf (actually he'd been around many years before, on Jimmy Dean show and such), Gonzo...

If you can, get a hold of The Muppet Movie and The Muppet Show. Y ou can't find anything better.

Except MuppetFest of course! :)

FOZ

[Chilly Down]

Back to the original topic:

Muppet Treasure Island didn't work for me because the Muppets were again playing storybook characters. I have no problem with that in general, but we saw the Muppets too rarely in the 90's for them to not be playing themselves when we did. I loved Christmas Carol, but when Treasure Island came out, it felt like it wasn't accomplishing anything -- i.e. we weren't learning anything new about the characters since they were all playing someone else. Sure they've played other characters before, but there would always be the backstage segments or the moments where things went wrong and they'd break character. In the end, the true characters triumphed over the story. In the storybook films, though, there is no moment like that. In MTI, Fozzie's just a criminally insane character with no repoire with Kermit at all. Since it adds nothing to the Muppet "mythology," and didn't even have the advantage of being different that MCC had, this one ranks even lower on my list than MFS.

I should note that I did like a lot about the movie. There were many funny moments and whenever Brian Henson directs, it's a handsome looking film. (I hope he gets behind the camera again soon.) But I haven't even seen it since initially watching it in the theater.

Other musings:

As stated, I thought Christmas Carol was great. The original Dickens tale is one of my favorite stories anyway, and again we've got Brian's well-crafted diretion. Also, there are themes of death and life and Kermit's speech about "comings and goings" that were all the more poignant after Jim and Richard's passing. This film also told me in no uncertain terms that the Muppet legacy would live on, and for that I love it.

I thought Gonzo and Rizzo were great together -- they got overused later, but here it was a surprising pairing that worked marvelously IMHO. Some of the major characters got short shrift, but given the nature of the story, I couldn't imagine them being cast in any other roles. Fozzie was a natural for Fezziwig, both because of the name pun and because both characters are so merry and fun-loving. Kermit HAD to be Cratchit, which naturally put Piggy as Cratchit's wife. I didn't mind that Kermit and Fozzie have no scenes together here. Fozzie's an independent character and is capable of surviving without Kermit for a while. The real problem is that they never got back togther.

I don't understand why people gush about GMC so much. I guess because they grew up with it and because it's the only one Jim directed himself. Also, maybe if they're a Piggy fan, because this is THE Piggy movie. I don't dislike Piggy, but she doesn't do as much for me as she clearly does for others, so that's not an appeal of the movie for me. At any rate, the movie is horribly bogged down by the who-cares crime plot involving the humans. Everyone complains about MCC being the Micheal Caine movie ... well, GMC is the Charles Grodin movie. Eech. I'd rather watch Caine any day, thanks. Also, while the main characters are all together for most of the film, it's mostly in big group scenes. The film seems overcrowded; individual characters don't really get a chance to shine. Aside from the core 4 (Kermit, Piggy, Fozzie, Gonzo), the other main characters all seem to get about two lines each. (Oddly enough, though, note the large number of lines delivered by Zoot of all people!) Joe Raposo's score is pleasant but nothing up on a level with the other movies. Sure there are some astounding puppet effects, such as the bicycle scene and Piggy tapdancing, but that's about it for me. Even when I was a kid, I rented this one far less often than the others.

Just to be sure I wasn't wrong, I rented it again last summer when it came on DVD. It actually fell further down my list after that viewing.

Meanwhile, I can't see why people rag on TMTM so much. It's the Muppets doing what they do best -- trying to put on a show. (Even the Doc Hopper sequences seemed kind of distracting in TMM. Don't misunderstand, though, I love TMM!) It's more realistic than the first movie in that they aren't handed a "standard rich-and-famous" contract when they decide to go to Broadway. They actually have to deal with failure and friendships drifting apart, and as such, it's more emotional and mature than the other films. (Who doesn't cry during "Saying Goodbye"?) Conversely, it's under the expert direction of Frank Oz, so it's by far the funniest movie in my opinion. Plus, there's that whole middle section where each of the characters gets a great scene all to themselves, before the suspenseful and fun reunion at the end. And the songs are all just phenomenal, IMHO.

I suppose part of my enthusiasm for this film is also that it's the only one I had taped off of TV, so I watched it more than the others. But I figure that's just as legitimate an argument as those who love GMC because they saw it when they were kids. : -)

So anyway, here's my ranking:

1. Muppets Take Manhattan
2. Muppet Christmas Carol
3. The Muppet Movie (The top 3 are great, the bottom 3 less so.)
4. Muppets from Space (not a terrific film for a lot of reasons, but at least it had great moments with Pepe and Bobo and expanded the Muppet mythology with the boarding house.)
5. Great Muppet Caper
6. Muppet Treasure Island

Before I get a hundred death threats for this post, I'd like to conclude by saying I actually like ALL of the films on this list. It's just that some could have been more satisfying to me than they were. If I expressed some dissatisfaction too strongly, please don't take it personally -- I respect all of your opinions. And this is, of course, just one more opinion. : -)

[frogboy4]

I have to comment on your query pertaining to the popularity of The Great Muppet Caper. Keep in mind that I really love all the Muppet films *except for Muppets From Space which I have learned to tolerate. :) This is just my perspective, of course.

You refer to it as "the Miss Piggy movie", but I tend to think of TGMG as the "money movie". There were many flawlessly fantastic musical numbers in this film that have not been duplicated since. Think of the spectacular scenes in the film: the opening number, the Happiness Hotel number, Steppin Out number (and none of these has even had Piggy yet), Piggy's dance number, the bike number, Piggy's fantasy number, and the cool closing sequence! I left out the Nightlife number because it was kind of filler.

Even though Miss Piggy had a sizeable role in the picture, so many of the other characters were prominently featured throughout the film. I actually thought Grodin didn't get much screen time relative to the plot - and I feel this film has more or at least an equal amount of plot compared to the rest of the Muppet pics. Anyway, that's why I think so many people love TGMC, but nothing beats The Muppet Movie in my view.

Why does The Muppets Take Manhattan get such a bum rap? Well, they must have spent most of the budget by shooting on location in New York because so many of the scenes were underwhelmingly low-budgeted soundstage shots. There were no big musical numbers until the end (which was spectacular, but still all soundstage). Okay, so the Muppet Babies number is thrown in there, but that scene always sticks out strangely to me, though it is enjoyable.

Miss Piggy had that ugly perm and so many of the Muppets seemed to be either cut out or way in the background waiting to be in the brief "money shot" at the end. The rats were cool though! That's the scene that everybody seems to remember most.

Just my take on it. I just can't comprehend how you could put TGMC behind MFS, but different views are what make for a cool and interesting world.:cool: (cool and interesting smiley LOL!)

[Fozzie Bear]

TGMC:

To me it was a big production where the characters could play themselves being someone else; as if they intended on this being a movie; unlike TMM where they were all themselves, see?

That's why we have such wonderful musical sequences in it, and the breakaways from the film which accidentally didn't get cut out in the editing room (Kermit and Piggy's fight in the park for example, in real life that would have hit the editing floor...which is what happens when you let the Swedish Chef do the editing, right?)

YAH YAH!!

FOZ

[Salmoto]

What I always loved about the Muppets was that each and every one of them, with few exceptions, were performers. To paraphrase a line sung by Clifford, they each had a job to do, and they did it for you. Everyone had a varying level of talent, from Piggy's world class acting to Lew Zealand's spinning fish, but they were all entertainers at heart.

What bugs people about MTI was that the characters were somewhat removed from their roles as entertainers. Previous movies had them at least showing a little behind the scenes action, but in Treasure Island, they remained in character throught the entire film, the only exceptions being Gonzo and Rizzo, who played themselves.

I'm gonna get keelhauled for saying this, but even "Muppets From Space" had more to do about the Muppets being entertainers than MTI. In Space, Kermit says that he's currently on vacation from acting and was planning on relaxing if he didn't have to paint the boarding house, fix the oven and save Gonzo from a top secret military base. He got some free time to play cards with Pepe and Clifford, although he didn't seem to be at Gonzo's jacuzzi party. Piggy, who's never stopped being a ham in any movie to date, tries a new career at journalism while Gonzo gets the Electric Mayhem to substitute him at a bah mitzvah. Of course, this was all realitively minor compared to the rest of the film.

What is most out of character for the Muppets in the more recent films is that they don't send the message is that they're putting on a show anymore. That was the heart of the whole henson legacy: Kermit, Piggy, Fozzie and Gonzo represented 4 different aspects of showbusiness and they used their talent to both enrich their lives and the lives of the audience. I for one loved Kermit becuase unlike other lead characters, he was intentionally giving his all in order to make me, happy. Maybe not hust me, but at least me and the people sitting with me in the movie theatre.

[Fozzie Bear]

I don't see any keelhaulnig in your future...I kinda agree with ya.

FOZ

[Jessie]

I agree with everything you said about MCC, but I have to agree with Jamie with
I just can't comprehend how you could put TGMC behind MFS,
:0)

[Chilly Down]

Jamie,

You make some excellent points about Caper. I certainly don't mean to imply that I hate the film at all. The movie has many great moments, including the bit at the beginning where they read the credits (Fozzie: "What does A.S.C. stand for?"), and Gonzo suggests that they try what they're doing without a balloon. Kermit: "Try what? Plummeting?" Gonzo: "Yeah!" I was just left with a feeling of wanting more in some way.

It's kind of funny, because Foz's comments about why he liked Caper -- that even though they kept their names, they were essentially playing characters -- is a large part of my problem with the movie, I think. In that way, MTI and Caper are kind of linked in my mind. I agree with most of what Sal had to say about MTI, and almost all of it can be applied to Caper as well for me. My love for Christmas Carol is the exception, not the rule.

Jamie and Jessie,

I know it may seem astonishing to put Space before Caper. But perhaps it's that I'm overly familiar with Caper too -- Space at least has the advantage of being new. Also, Caper just feels very dated in a late 70s/early 80s way to me. There are many strengths that Space has over Caper (including the camaderie between the core 4, missing from Space). But I guess what I'm saying is that if I had both DVDs sitting at home right now, I'd be far more likely to watch "Brickhouse" or Pepe in a tutu than Piggy's water ballet.

Finally, why does everyone pick on Piggy's 80s perm? ;) For the time, it was very fashionable. I think Piggy's current 'do is much worse -- it's much too plain. But that's just another one of my strange Dissenting Muppet Opinions. :rolleyes:

[frogboy4]

I feel that MFS is more dated than TGMC in that the Muppets were trying so hard to be current in Space while in Caper they gave a much less "forced" performance in my view. When Kermit said "Way to get down with your funky selves," at the end of Brick House, I must admit to sinking in my theater seat. I undersatnd how spme may think new is better, but I guess I just think Caper had that spark that was missing in Space and has been missing for a very long time with the Muppets - except when Pepe brightens up the screen. I stand by the classics I love while I look for new ones. I can understand wanting to watch MFS more than Caper - there's so much to see in the film, but that doesn't mean I feel it is better than Caper. I guess there's a different criteria for what makes a better film. Hmmm.

Piggys perm. It is terrible and I always found it tacky even when I was a kid - and I lived in Texas at the time, big hair central. LOL! I like her hair fine now, but nothing beats her classic long hair with the slight wave. I guess she's too old for that now, but something similar with more sophistication would be cool!

And what about Fozzies new psycopathic and abnormal behavior since TMTM? He was barely in TMCC, bizarre in MTI and a compulisve nosepicker/wallflower in MFS. Eeeek!:)

[Fozzie Bear]

Them yonder's fightin' words!!

"And what about Fozzies new psycopathic and abnormal behavior since TMTM? He was barely in TMCC, bizarre in MTI and a compulisve nosepicker/wallflower in MFS. Eeeek!"

Okay, so, again I agree with you; still, where's my rubber chicken? Head smackin' time again.

I think it's only due to Oz's abscence. We all know that MTI required him to be so...(insert word here)...crazy acting, and they didn't have many roles for him in MCC cause I don't think there's too many roles to disperse; but I agree that Muppets From Space SHOULD (and could) have had Fozzie doing bigger things, and better roles. I think the nose picking thing was an attempt for "shock value" as was Miss Piggy's running up the stairs, "Oh! I gotta PEE!"

Who's to blame? The writers. They could do a better job by studying scripts by Jerry Juhl. Plain and Simple.

I also agree with Chilly, Miss Piggy is much too glamorous for that plain hair do they give her. She's a DIVA! They should hire a professional hair-stylist (my MOM) to do it!! My mom loves the Pig and would do wonders for her. She cuts MY hair (heh heh--inside joke only for those who've seen my pics).

Anyhow, they SHOULD be getting more of Jim's old characters and Frank's old characters BACK in the limelight again with all the new voice performers they have.

And Skeeter? Who was it that mentioned Skeeter? NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!! i won't have anything to do with Muppet Babies' spin-offs because that cartoon confused many of the 80's chilluns who grew up wondering who the Muppets really were when they saw something that wasn't animated. Ew. Like those Ninja Turtles. Who ever thought Donatello would be reduced to a TURTLE??

Grrrr...Oh, get ready Frogboy, here's my rubber chicken!!
FOZ
Wait! My rubber chicken!! It's...it's...*sigh*...something for another thread. :(

The other thread: See: "The Infamous Rubber Chicken" under General Discussions.

[frogboy4]

Ouch. A rubber-chicken lashing!

I have had the same thought about Skeeter and Muppet Babies, but I think a grown up Skeeter voiced by a seasoned Muppet performer could be a good thing. There aren't enough strong female characters in the Muppets and she could be one of them. My fear is that they'd give her more time than Scooter and that would be very wrong.

About Miss Piggy - didn't she used to have a stylist? I think she should have a more mature version of her long hair slightly curled in a modern fashion. Simple and elegant. They have made her look a lot fatter and older these days - time for a face lift IMHO!

[Fozzie Bear]

I hope you didn't mean OUR Miss Piggy, but rather the puppet. I still say that the new 'molded' puppets are kinda stiff. But, I hear Gonzo likes the molded puppets, and those with fugus and spores as well! WOCKA WOCKA!!

FOZ :D

[frogboy4]

Yeah, I keep noticing the Waldorf syndrome in all the materials I have gone through lately. Eeek. He does look like he was abducted.

[Beauregard]

I do find it weak that they remade two classic tales rather than just making them Muppet movies

I don't think that it is weak. I think they should do some of the other clasics as well.

Imagine Pigy as Cinderella, Snow White, or a Little Mermaid!!!

Or Kirmet as Philios Frog

Also I love all the FIRST Muppet movies. TGMC, TMM, & TMTM

[Jessie]

LOL, Miss Piggy as the Little Mermiad?
:0)

[frogboy4]

I really hope they don't keep remaking fairytales. Leave that to Disney, the Muppets are too creative to make that a habit.

[Chilly Down]

Jamie: Good point about the "get down with your bad selves" line. That was truly cringeworthy. You reminded me of something else I disliked about Space -- the inexplicably entirely retro '70s soundtrack. That, in essence, made the film sound dated before it was released. I'd rather have a traditional musical from them or no music at all than a rock soundtrack that screamed, "We're a nostalgia act!" I'm not big on '70s nostalgia anyway; I grew up during the '80s, so that's my passion. Both Caper and Space have that '70s feel to them (though in Space's case it makes no sense). Even TMM has it to some degree, but there's enough of the timeless quality of the Muppets for me to still love it. At any rate, even if I loved '70s nostalgia, I still don't think it was an appropriate direction for Space.

Ahem. Oh, wait. I'm supposed to be defending my choice of Space over Caper, aren't I? ;-)

I certainly don't mean to imply that just because something is new that it's better. One only need compare Phantom Menace to the classic Star Wars films to see that's not true! I guess I wasn't overwhelmed by either Caper or Space, and my over-familiarity with Caper inclines me to want to watch Space more. If all things were equal -- if Space had been made during Jim's heyday, or if Caper had been made recently -- I suppose Caper would edge out Space.

I know what you mean about the spark missing in Space. I think they've been having trouble finding their rhythm again since the loss of crucial people, and the addition of new performers (which is a good thing and would have happened anyway) also has made the transition period challenging. They have to find their groove again -- or, more to the point, they have to find a new groove for the new mixture of people.

However, I felt the spark was still very much evident in TMTM. I can *completely* understand why many would choose Caper above Space, but I am surprised that so many choose Caper over Manhattan, which in my mind is a more "pure" Muppet film, if you will.

Admittedly, Piggy's '80s perm does look weird now. But sometimes people seem to forget that just about everything goes out of style eventually. They look at old pictures of themselves and say, "What was I thinking?" not realizing that they'll be saying the same thing about what they're wearing now in 20 years. Since, unlike the timeless look of Kermit or Fozzie, Piggy HAS to look as contemporary as possible, I guess we'll just have to deal with these "hiccups" in taste. I agree that her original hairdo is still the best.

I know what you mean about Fozzie going pyscho. I even mentioned that in reference to MTI. However, I wouldn't say it happened immediately after Manhattan. Fozzie was still in top form, I think, in the rest of the projects immediately up through Jim's death (MFC, the Disney World special, MuppetVision 3D, and Muppets Celebrate Jim Henson, etc.). The changeover really started to take place in MCC -- though not quite insane in that one, he does begin his practice of wearing wigs which he'll do for most of the '90s. However, while Fozzie was still not quite himself in MFS, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's still the nutcase he was in other productions.

Foz: Hey! I liked Ninja Turtles! :) The early incarnations, at least.

Miss Piggy does need to get her neck back so she can move her head around properly. Poor pig. (There's an uncomfirmed rumor that she's getting a "facelift" for MF2.)

Beau: I don't mind them doing popular stories and fairy tales so much -- but they should do them as TV-movies at times when there's high output from them. When you're going three-and-a-half years in between any new Muppet output, it hurts to have them just pretending to be someone else.

[frogboy4]

I agree with you about sectioning off the remakes of literature etc to television projects. It really is irritating to wait years between Muppet films then watch them do yet another version of Chistmas Carol or Treaure Island. It's a waste of a perfectly good oportunity when they could do something more creative. Leave the remakes for TV.

I don't think Caper has a 70s feel at all. It is very much an early eighties feel to me. I didn't see many funky 70s moments.?

I put TMTM in fourth (sometimes third) position in my list. My faves are pretty much in descending order - the best projects in series always seem to come first. Manhattan just seemed less exciting than many of the other films. The characters weren't going anywhere in particular. A couple of pseudo chases (don't get me started on the low quality Piggy chase scene). It just always seemed low-rent to me when compared to the rest of the films. Even MFS seems to have higher production values. It just looked slapped together to me. Just my opinion. To paraphrase the frog - it felt that there was something missing.

[Fozzie Bear]

Who directed MTI and MCC and MFS? I think MFS was lacking somewhat because of the director. Not very creative in my opinion, after all, did you see the commentary on the DVD? He doesn't say anything hardly, and what he says isn't funny at all. It's all Gonzo (who speaks once in a while) and Rizzo, who is HILARIOUS to me in the commentary. Yep, I think we have to look toward the directors.

I do agree, that with all the years between productions, having the characters perform other characters could confuse new fans, ie the Muppet Babies problem.

Chilly:
I forgot what I said about the TMNT, but I'm glad you liked them. I have a pet turtle named Humphrey. He's a box turtle.

Later,
FOZ

[frogboy4]

I didn't think anyone was funny in the commentary. Rizzo is beginning to grate on my nerves these days as he is over-exposed. I kept wanting Kermit to come back! I found the commentary to be skillfully executed, but there was no substance to it.

Brian Henson, of course, directed MCC and MTI and several people including Hill and Brian reportedly directed MFS. It looks like there was really a mess in the production that nobody could clean up. I really think they should find another director besides Brian or Hill for the new projects. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would love working on a Muppet film.

In the end, I don't think anything could have saved MFS. The problem seemed to be on paper before they started shooting and carried through the production as things kept getting changed.

[Lu775]

MFS is the funniest thing they've done in a long time.
"I'm going to spank you like a bad, bad donkey, okay?"

Need I say more?

[Jessie]

I don't think an outside director is needed. Brian knows Muppets. I think he's the man for the job...it's just a shame that he wasn't director of MFS...maybe it would have been better...

Actually maybe it's good that he didn't direct MFS...then I disassoicte him from MFS...

[frogboy4]

I disagree. Brian has already directed two of the films and hasn't had much box office success. He reportedly had a lot of influence in MFS too. I think he should stick to producing and puppeteering. That's just my view. There needs to be some new fresh life breathed into the Muppets and I think a new director teamed with Jerry Juhl's writing could do the trick.

[Jessie]

I guess part of the diagreement is stemmed from the fact that I found MCC was brillant while you did not...

I do agree with you that Jerry Juhl is a must.

[frogboy4]

Okay, I guess you throw the term " brillant" around too easily. I can understand that some people enjoyed the film, but calling if brillant is going a little bit overboard in my opinion. Citizen Kane is brilliant, MCC is a film you enjoyed very much. But I guess in the end it is all relative. I just don't see how a remake of a remake of a remake starring the Muppets as backround characters is flawless or brillant.

It was considered a box office disappointment and that really matters in today's climate if the Muppets are to make a successful comeback. As for Brian Henson's involvement in MFS - he was the producer - aka the moneyman - few decisions made in films escape the producer so Muppets From Space's failing is in part due to the producer too.

Just my thoughts:)

[Jessie]

Okay, okay, okay. Shawshank Repemption is brillant. Forrest Gump is brillant imo. MCC was, yes, a film that I enjoyed VERY much.

[frogboy4]

LMAO. It was just an observation. I admit to using the term liberally too sometimes:)

The Dark Crystal is brilliant in my opinion.

[Fozzie Bear]

I think it's time for FRANK to come back to his roots, don't ya know? eh?

FOZ

[frogboy4]

Sadly it doesn't look likely these days with all the talk of replacing his characters. :(

[Jessie]

You know I've never seen the Dark Crystal...perhaps I should get around to doing so...

[frogboy4]

Eeeek! You are kidding me. Drop everything, go to the store and pick up the DVD. It is considered by many as Jim Henson's best film. Just beautiful, and unlike anything that had come before it.

[Chilly Down]

Now THAT'S exaggeration, Jamie! ;-) Brilliant from a technical standpoint, maybe, but I've always found Dark Crystal to be unbearably dull.

Guess everyone's got different definitions of "brilliant." :)

[frogboy4]

Oh, I completely disagree. Brilliant is warranted in that case.:eek:

[Salmoto]

Well, last I saw it was when I was a little kid, but I still recognized it then as a totally original concept for a movie, fantasy or otherwise. I should watch it again.

[frogboy4]

For the quiet film it was at the box office and how long ago it came out - I find it surprising the people still talk about it these days and (in many circles) consider it a favorite. They aint making Legend, Labyrinth or Willow figures these days to my knowlege. All fantasy pics with a more notable audience, but DC is more high-profile for some reason.