Snoop Doggy Dog (The Degenerate)

[Patty E.]

To: The Jim Henson Company
Charles H. Rivkin, Chief Executive Officer

I am very disturbed by a decision made by Jim Henson Productions to host a Christmas special featuring Rapper Snoop Doggy Dogg. The production company's decision to showcase this vulgar person with our beloved Muppet characters is an assault on America's impressionable, young minds.

Who at Jim Henson Productions determined it appropriate to introduce degenerate personalities to our children? His material is not worthy of being streamlined. He openly disrespects women, talks trash, and has an act that belongs in a X-rated club.

Kermit-the-Frog and the entire Muppet family must remember vulgar conduct is never acceptable. It is never in style or smart to degrade yourself or denigrate others.

My preference is to imagine Ms. Piggy's excitement upon meeting a real-life Marine Officer, "quick get the smelling salts." Or Kermit's pride in meeting a Captain from the U.S. Navy's Amphibious Unit.

I am talking about giving meaning, presenting dynamic role models in a warm, fun, wholesome, endearing fashion. The vulgar programming must cease. This is my request, and I speak on behalf of all the big and little kids. Please hear our voice, touch our heart, and always use your platform wisely.

Respectfully,
Patty E.
Email: pegerer@aol.com

[tomahawk]

yeah mr. rivkin so digitally cut richard pryor out of the muppet movie because just the sight of that swearing, drug doing degenerate makes me wanna run away and hide.

[Thog]

And please never show the Alice Cooper episode of The Muppet Show again.

PS Never let Ozzy sing with Miss Piggy

[Patty E.]

There is nothing glamorous or funny about drug dealing, violence, or crime. Nor, is it "cool" to teach your children to admire those that exhibit degenerate behavior. Snoop Dog, markets vulgarity. Glorifying Snoop Doggy Dog is grossly inappropriate for children's programming. Jim Henson Productions, is duty bound to maintain a high level of integrity in programming.


Respectfully,
Patty E.
Email: pegerer@aol.com

[FellowWLover]

Ok, you guys are mocking her, and I can see your point, *but* she does raise some issues that make some sense to me. I know I already argued on the other side of the fence, but her letter is starting to convince me. Porn stars and Muppets make me queasy.

[tomahawk]

o.k. than never watch the mt episode with cindy crawford because she was in playboy several times and there are still some people who consider that porno.

[Thog]

It just shows that the Muppets work with a wide range of stars that appeal to all sorts of different people. Snoop just happens to be one of them. Tomahawk is right. Richard Pryor did a lot of drugs back in the 1970's, but then again so did Gilda Radner and a few other that were guest stars on the show. Steve Martin wasn't always the cleanest man during his stand up comic days.
And what about Eddie Murphy? He caused a lot of problems back in the 1980's. Even though he hasn't worked with the Muppets, he has worked on a number of children's movies such as Mulan and Shrek.

[tomahawk]

another question i have for patty e ,what is your defintion of degrading? is it we will pay you x amount of money to be in a video(x or mtv approved) and you can either say yes or no, i would say it is in the hands of the person getting paid.
i believe you can only degrade yourself.

[frogboy4]

Seems that, once again, the Muppet Show gang is being confused with their Sesame Street cousins. The Muppet Show aucience is more mature and can make distinctions between entertainers and role models. Must everything be so PC all the time? Snoop Dog is not my fave, but I am very interested in what he'll be doing on the show. Now having someone like Kathy Lee - well that would be frightening. Better save that for a Halloween special. Oh...but they did get Kelly. Poor girl thought she was on the Sesame Street set. Well - many people do confuse the two projects these days, but hopefully that will change after the new year.

[Drtooth]

I'd also like to say I am feeling uneasy that Snoop Dog is in it. I was praying that it was a typo, and they ment Snoopy the dog was in it!

I also don't like the fact that SCRUBS cast members will be there, since it is a blatent promo for their show. And I hope they don't sneak in the overacting unfunny Sean Hayes (of Will and Grace) in it either! UGH!!!

[frogboy4]

I'm surprised that more NBC stars aren't in the special. I think people are carrying on too much. I'm sure these actors will only be on for a second. Heck, I never much liked John Denver, but it was quite different when he was with the Muppets. Months after the announcement - why are we still stuck on Snoop Dog? He's off the drugs anyway and he's cleaned up his act quite a bit. I don't think we'd be as concerned if it were Liza Minelli - and that girl's abused so many substances in her life to stock a pharmaceutical company! I just feel it's popular to pick on certain types of people.

[tomahawk]

jamie, i also thought we were done with all of this. i was even hesitating answering back but i couldn't stand it any more.

[beaker]

You know, maybe Emenem would have been a better choice...you know, because he seems to be thought of as 'safe' amongst the suburban soccer mom picket fence community.

The fact is JHC doesnt have much money to pull in say Tom Cruise or George Clooney, or any other A-list star. So what ya can get, you'll get.

Also, isn't the PC days of the 90's officially over? I know
ever since the unspeakable tragedy of 2/21( feb 21st 2000 when EM.TV officially kidnapped JHC and the Muppets) the days of sensitivity and irony have gone out the window...but there really isnt any celebrity I would object to(*note I say celebtrity, not infamous media created celebrity) being on the Muppet Show whether it be Marilyn Manson, Charlton Heston or PResident George W Bush.(as a note, all three of these folks star in a new documentray by Michale Moore called "Bowling For Columbine" out later this year)

[FellowWLover]

Originally posted by beaker
You know, maybe Emenem would have been a better choice...you know, because he seems to be thought of as 'safe' amongst the suburban soccer mom picket fence community.



Dunno about that... Eminem is not too popular in that circle either.

[Warrick]

Actually, i think that the Point is, The Muppets are starring in it, Its NBC's so they choose.

If The Muppets say they dont want him in it, Then thats their problem.

But anyway, What Jamie said is true, This is not Sesame Street.

And it will attract older viewers, Because they know Snoop Dogg aint gonna mingle with Big Bird.

See ya

[danielromens]

To Patty,

Though I do respect your opinion here's some food for thought...

a. just because they have chosen to use Snoop as a guest in no way means they are advertising crime and vulgarity to youngsters. He's there to entise a different fan base to watch the film, a different demographic for possible fans. This could be anywhere from inner city kids to african americans, to anyone who enjoys him as a performer.

b. Snoop is cleaning himself up. Supposedly he has given up drugs and (though long ago) he cut ties between himself and the gang world. He's doing it because he has a wife and kids. People change.

c. Here are some other beloved degenerates and "bad influences" who've worked with the muppets. These are anyone involved with drugs, crass behavor, or other wise....

1. Robin Williams-a known coke abuser, and crass comic (see live at the met)
2. Ozzy Osborne
3. Alice Cooper
4. Mel Brooks - comedy below the belt
5. Debby Harry
6. Jimmy Buffet- songs about drunkeness
7. Elton John
8. John Cleese-Monty Python was not kids stuff
9. Steve Martin
10. The cast of Saturday Night Live
11. Dudley Moore
12. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones
13. Hulk Hogan
14. Richard Prior
15. Jon Stewart-an admitted dope smoker
16. Whoopie Goldberg
17. Tim Curry- a transvestite in Rocky Horror...for shame
18. Liza Minneli
19. Coolio
20. Tony Bennet- also had a coke problem and possible mafia ties
21. Robert Downey Junior

the list goes on and on...not only that, but Jim and the puppeteers weren't exactly angles all of the time either.

Again, I do think you raise a point, but it seems a bit under thought and underinformed. Maybe you should actually try writing the company instead of posting to a fan board.

Also I don't see how a guest star is glorifying violence. Unless he's dealing drugs to animal or pulling drivebyes in Fozzie's studebaker I really don't see the harm in someone doing something for their kids.

daniel romens

[FellowWLover]

Just for the record, his drug use and gang affiliation may be in the past, but his porno stuff is recent... very recent.

[Patty E.]

The reality is Snoop has chosen a deviant lifestyle and he continues to disrespect women.

FellowWLover is right, he maintains his "gang affiliation."

Apparently, Mr. Rivkin is interested in making "vulgar" fashionable.

Respecfully,
Patty E.
Email: pegerer@aol.com

[kansasteen14]

I dont want Snoop Dogg in it but Peggy do you reliase the fact that the muppets have been made for all ages my 7 year old brother loves them I a 14 year old loves them my 32 year old mother loves them.

[tomahawk]

again patty i will ask the question. is it degrading or disrespecting someone by paying them to do a job(i.e. a mtv or porno video) when the payee is saying yes to all of it and smiling all the way to the bank?

[towels]

Originally posted by Patty E.
FellowWLover is right, he maintains his "gang affiliation."


Actually, if you read what was posted, his gang affiliation was in the past.

[Boober_Baby]

Yeah, I agree with everyone else. It's not like Snoop Dogg's gonna come on and bust a cap in Kermit. He's doing this for his kids! I think that's a nice, fatherly thing to do. Also, it sounds like he's somewhat raising his kids on the Muppets! Which would be a good influence for them. Remember, the guy was a hardcore rapper, yes, but he's also a father.

And as everyone else has already pointed out the Muppets is pretty adult-based and has a long list of controversial celebrities. Now they may not seem so controversial but at the time they were. 10 years from now Snoop Dogg will seem like Snoopy the dog.

And one more thing. Why are there two boards based on this?

^_^ Debo

[tomahawk]

patty e decided because snoop is so degrading and immoral that one board was obviously not enough.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by beaker
You know, maybe Emenem would have been a better choice...you know, because he seems to be thought of as 'safe' amongst the suburban soccer mom picket fence community.

...mainly because he's white. DOn't get me started...

Anyway, it's not so much about his writing songs about slapping "B's" and "H's" (and I don't mean Birds and Homers), and the drugs, and the filthy sex talk, I just plain don't like him. However, after Coolio appeared on a recent America's Funniest Home Videos, I think these people are settling down, giving up their bad boy image and getting to make the public like them more.

However, rereading this post I must say, we have to try everything possible to stop the jaded public from thinking that the Muppets are "Kiddy stuff" while they watch more juvenile garbage like "The Batchelor" and "AFV."

[FellowWLover]

Originally posted by Boober_Baby
. Now they may not seem so controversial but at the time they were. 10 years from now Snoop Dogg will seem like Snoopy the dog.



I hope not. In order for that description to come true, society as we know it would have to degenerate considerably!!

[Drtooth]

..well...Jerry Springer is still on the air.

[tomahawk]

...and celine dion still has a career

[Patty E.]

Tomahawk to answer your question:

Compensation is irrelevant, sleaze is sleaze.


Respectfully,
Patty E.
Email: PEgerer@aol.com

[towels]

I disagree! There are different levels of sleaze!

Pepe selling seafood was slightly sleazy.
Being a slumlord is quite sleazy.
Forcing your preschooler into beauty pagents hints of sleaziness.
Not letting the Muppets into the Chicago Speedway because they weren't getting a cut of the profits seems a little sleazy.
Corporate CEOs selling stock options before running the company into bankruptcy is pretty sleazy.
The Man Show tries for sleaziness.

Obviously creating adult entertainment is higher on your sleaze scale than it is mine.
Personally, I am much less bothered by sex than violence, because one is consensual and the other isn't. I like being able to make my own moral choices.



As an aside, does this mean Snoop would have fit into the Muppet pilot?

:)

[frogboy4]

I know - do we forget that The Muppet Show pilot was titled - Sex and Violence? Just seems to me that we are over-thinking this. Interesting debate though. I just really don't care very much. Hulk Hogan appearing with the Muppets is more offensive to me - just because he's such a C Level star these days.

[tomahawk]

everyone has different values. i will gladly take sex on video before killing, cheating or lying.......man that sounds weird when i read it back, oh well have fun with that comment.

[Patty E.]

Jim Henson ProductionsTM
Charles H. Rivkin, President
1416 N. La Brea Avenue
Los Angeles, CA 90028

Dear Mr. Rivkin:

The vulgarizing of young minds and pandering to the lowest-common denominator as a "marketing methodology" is a tool employed by networks and production companies.

Henson Productions is making a political statement on this upcoming Christmas Special by featuring Snoop Doggy Dogg. In effect, this is your way of endorsing the entertainment industry's movement to aggressively pursue the "right" to have the absolute freedom to assault the young mind with violence, vulgar images, and lewd vocabulary.

Organizations that refuse to be "used" as the vehicle to generate vile material receive my respect, and patronage. Unfortunately, Henson Productions lacks the backbone or concern. Instead, Mr. Rivkin eagerly has jumped into the pimpin' mobile. "Anything for a buck," philosophy is why watchdog groups will continue to maintain a solid presence, and develop muscle.

Respectfully,

Patty Egerer
Email:pegerer@aol.com

[frogboy4]

Misspelled Rivkin on the final line. I'm terrible at spelling but you should be aware of it before sending it out. That's all I will comment. ;)

[danielromens]

Mr. Revkin eagerly has jumped into the pippin' mobile.


Are you sure you didn't mean pimpin' mobile?

[Patty E.]

Corrections noted, thank you.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Patty E.


Henson Productions is making a political statement on this upcoming Christmas Special by featuring Snoop Doggy Dogg. In effect, this is your way of endorsing the entertainment industry's movement to aggressively pursue the "right" to have the absolute freedom to assault the young mind with violence, vulgar images, and lewd vocabulary.


Uhhhmmm.. not to intrude, but what exactly do you think he's going to be doing on the show? Maybe you should have an advanced screening or something!

[tomahawk]

alright, who let pat robertson in?

[beaker]

Like I argue in the other Snoop thread, its not Snoop Dogg's past or vulgarity that upsets me, its his lack of timeliness. Why cant they get really outdated stars like Bronson Pinchot and the cast of Full House? ;)

[frogboy4]

Snoop's involvement is likely due to his publicist not the Henson or NBC folk shopping aroung for him. I'm surprised they couldn't get at least Billy Crystal or someone classic like that. And why isn't Jay Leno showing up? He'll do anything. LOL!

[tomahawk]

Originally posted by Patty E.
Tomahawk to answer your question:

Compensation is irrelevant, sleaze is sleaze.


Respectfully,
Patty E.
Email: PEgerer@aol.com i wasn't talking about sleaze, i was asking you about you definition of degrading. if you need to, please re-read my post.

[Thog]

This is getting more attention from the media. Today the FOX news raido guy was saying that it was wrong. He made some very funny coments about what the muppets would be doing with him which involved things that I don't think I could say here. He talked about Miss Piggy and umm...a gardening "hoe"...Kermit and a crack pipe and some other stuff. He wasn't too amused that Snoop was doing this movie.

Dan

[pdiddy]

Snoop won't be on...that sux. I love snoopy!

http://www.henson.com/company/press/html/092702.html

[Patty E.]

Smart move, Mr. Rivin. Adoring fans and families can rest assured, wholesome fun will not be compromised.

Thanks for listening-
Patty E
Email: pegerer@aol.com
:cool:

[Skeeter Muppet]

Okay, he's not going to be on.

Does this mean we can stop with the arguing and complaining and everything else now? I personally got sick and tired of it the first page of all these posts devoted to the subject, and I know that others feel the same.

-Kim

[towels]

Ummm...you do know you have the option to not read certain threads, right?

[Thog]

Originally posted by towels
Ummm...you do know you have the option to not read certain threads, right?

Took the words right out of my mouth....er I mean fingers.

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by towels
Ummm...you do know you have the option to not read certain threads, right?

Y'know, I'm not gonna dignify that with an answer...


-Kim

[grail]

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
Okay, he's not going to be on.

Does this mean we can stop with the arguing and complaining and everything else now? I personally got sick and tired of it the first page of all these posts devoted to the subject, and I know that others feel the same.

-Kim what she said.

and yes, i too know that i have the ability to choose not to read if i don't want to. but it's a bit like a train wreck...you just can't look away. while applaud the fact that people feel free to make their opinions known, this really has gotten ridiculous. for starters, he WAS in only one scene...briefly. now, hopefully we can all let this go and get on with our lives...

[towels]

Perhaps you were too busy rolling your eyes and hadn't noticed that the discussion had moved beyond Snoop.
I guess I just don't understand people's desire to suppress any topic they have lost interest in. I'll grant you it'd be nice if people would keep to one post per topic, but I'm sure most of us have been on forums enough to have realized that's not very likely. However, just because you have lost interest in a topic doesn't mean that others have. Why should they not be able to debate as long as they want? Is it really that hard to choose not to read something? Somebody explain this to me. Maybe I've been slacking in not posting how little I care for Transformers on that thread, or complaining about all the posts about what is going on in Canada, Australia, England, etc. because it doesn't affect me.

[grail]

okay, let me clarify myself a little...

the reason i want this topic to die? frankly, i think it's a stupid topic. and definately not deserving of the THREE threads that have come out of it. he has (now had) a CAMEO in the movie...the word cameo was used in the original statement, i believe. by definition, a cameo is a short appearance. who am i to say that a guy can't make a short appearance with the Muppets because he does things i don't agree with? i know if it were me, and i had a chance to be in a Muppet movie that was scuttled because a bunch of people got cheesed over my...let's say "propensity for colorful language" (something that if people heard me in real life, they would realize i'm using as a real example), i'd be pretty torqued off. believe it or not, i argued that N'Sync should have gotten their Ep II cameo too...sure i loathe the whole lot of them...N'Sync, Snoop, all this mindless drivel that degrades MUSIC to what we're hearing on the radio today.

the nerds cried foul because a, "non-nerd", "band" made it into the (second) biggest nerd movie of the summer.

now the Muppet fans, who by and large are a "family-oriented" group (which i LIKE about us, so no hatemail) are honked off because someone that doesn't represent their view of family values made it in.

i think it comes down to jealousy. in our opinions, they're "unworthy". like WE are. sure it probably happened because of his publicist, but Henson agreed. why not put a little faith in the company that you all worship so much. but no...like petulant children, we whined until we got our way...i'm so proud...

oh, and the biggest reason i made that last post at all? i honestly thought it was kinda rude the way Skeeter was just dismissed like that, and decided to throw in some support.

(man...i'm just killing my popularity points today...i realy hope everyone knows not to take any of this personally. but they are my views, and i am just as entitled as everyone else...)

[Patty E.]

Evil will assume a presence if we don't have the courage or make the effort to express ourselves.

A child need NOT be assaulted with violent images, vulgarity, trashy talk and demeaning references towards women.

You refer to his appearance as a "cameo." I call it an infomerical.

Sincerely,
Patty E.

[frogboy4]

OMG! OMG! I just don't know quite what to say but OMG!:eek:

[grail]

Originally posted by Patty E.
Evil will assume a presence if we don't have the courage or make the effort to express ourselves.

A child need NOT be assaulted with violent images, vulgarity, trashy talk and demeaning references towards women.

You refer to his appearance as a "cameo." I call it an infomerical.

Sincerely,
Patty E. "evil will assume a presence"? people actually talk like that? no offense, but that's about as ridiculous as anything i've ever heard. why would you think the Muppets would allow those type of images in their movie? because that's what you're saying...you're saying that the very PRESENCE of a person is the personification of all these things. while YOU might think so, kid's are not gonna know this. unless they're already watching things they shouldn't be. and if that's the case, well...i call that a failing on the parent's part

[CaptCrouton]

Oops, posted the same thing twice. HowdIdodat? Edited out for redundancy.

[CaptCrouton]

But it's good parents who stand up when anti-family programming is marketed as family entertainment. Not just those who govern their kids television. Both are important.

We can't take the attitude of "If you don't like crime in the streets, stay in the house." That's laissez-faire. I think Peggy has every right to not just change channels, but to promote healthy television as a fan. It's accountibility to your consumers.

People with family values buy cars and cereal and computers and Muppet videos. There's so much already for people who don't.

I wish I would've known about Eddie Murphy's @ss jokes before taking anyone to see Shrek. We definitely wouldn't have gone. Call me prudish, right-winger, televangelist or whatever. I don't want my kids repeating that joke or emulating said entertainer.

You may think it's fine for your kids. It's in your power to allow them to watch South Park or listen to Snoop Doggy Doo-Doo. My family is not in their target audience. As a consumer of Muppet Products, I'd like them to stay classy and not trashy. If not, I stop buying their product. You also have the right to protest if you think the Muppets aren't trashy enough, but clearly enough people respect women and love kids to turn the tide. At least this time.

Besides, Gortch really WAS awful. Edgy, sure. But try as they might, they didn't fit the SNL scene. Henson was destined for higher roads.

[Thog]

I guess some people are just better off watching The 700 Club.

[CaptCrouton]

Maybe I need a little clarification from that remark.

Are you saying I should quit buying Muppet videos, or that free speech is only limited to those who agree with you?

Could I as easily say, "Maybe some people are better off watching Crank Yankers????" :confused:

[Jivepuppet]

It's a shame so many people here are so nasty about Snoop. He is a human being and has made mistakes, just like the rest of us. He has cleaned up (drug use that is) and is trying to bring his career in a different direction. Maybe some people don't like his music, or Ozzy, or Alice Cooper, or Prince, or whoever, but aren't the Muppets all about bringing it ALL together, dispite our differences? Just go back and watch the first Muppet film, they all got together, and they're all very different.

I'm diappointed. I always thought Muppet fans we're open minded to different things. Jim Henson may not have been a Snoop fan if he was still around, but he would have given him a chance.

Jon
jivepuppet@aol.com

[tomahawk]

Originally posted by Jivepuppet
It's a shame so many people here are so nasty about Snoop. He is a human being and has made mistakes, just like the rest of us. He has cleaned up (drug use that is) and is trying to bring his career in a different direction. Maybe some people don't like his music, or Ozzy, or Alice Cooper, or Prince, or whoever, but aren't the Muppets all about bringing it ALL together, dispite our differences? Just go back and watch the first Muppet film, they all got together, and they're all very different.

I'm diappointed. I always thought Muppet fans we're open minded to different things. Jim Henson may not have been a Snoop fan if he was still around, but he would have given him a chance.

Jon
jivepuppet@aol.com sometimes it really does all come together. bravo jive puppet!! i agree with your statement of muppet fans being open minded. all of this talk about banning certain adult movies, wanting to stop a topic because they are tired of seeing it, oh and lets not forget about the evil, evil snoop dog. come on , is this really what the jim henson company is all about. the part i most agree on is that i believe jim henson himself would be very disappointed.

[Cantus' Ghost]

I cannot believe what a fuss some of you are making about this! I thought this was a great effort (as was the Weezer video) to regain some of the credibility lost with adult audiences.

You wanna know what REALLY offends me? Laura Bush's appearance on SS. Y'all know Lara Bush, right? She's the wife of that vicious war monger who killed 4000 Afghans, executed more prisoners- some who were retarde and minors- than any other governor in American history, pushes to kill thousands more of the long-suffering Iraqis, gave tax cuts to the rich, and exploited the third world through free trade agreements. And our First Lady had the nerve to sit back with a big stupid smile on her face. [Cringe!]

But instead we're focusing the attention on Snoop Dogg for making some (presumably) lame porno and smoking pot.

WHY?????????

Please, people, don't be fooled into believing this Snoop Dogg cameo is important! The Henson Co. are allowed and should be allowed to work with whoever they want. Lt's bring attention to this whole little war thing going on. Isn't that more important than Snoop Dogg? Good Lord, I hope so...

[grail]

wow...the two best comments i've yet read on the subject...jivepuppet, you officially need to talk more, and cantus' ghost, welcome to the group! excellent points from you both!

[CaptCrouton]

Wait Grail,

Aren't those two "great points" mutually exclusive?

Jivepuppet says we should include everyone, erasing all the lines and rules and codes and accept whoever and whatever.

Cantus' ghost says that we shouldn't accept Laura Bush, but maybe more broadly that we shouldn't accept anyone who believes in the war effort, or capital punishment.

So what is the logical conclusion? Can a person be so open-minded that their brain falls out? Say Henson decided to bring on Pat Robertson. (Since somehow he was brought into this thread) Just for my own amusement, let's say that Robertson agreed to come on the Muppet Show and sing "There's Trouble in River City" with Sam the Eagle. Would you be open minded to that? Would you give him a chance? If not, on what grounds?

[frogboy4]

I think the Muppets should have whomever they want on their darn shows.

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by frogboy4
I think the Muppets should have whomever they want on their darn shows.

What he said.

-Kim

[frogboy4]

Right on, sis!

[Patty E.]

The rapper and his publicist are busy exploiting all avenues of the preteen market. It's the crass commercialism of his vulgarity. He has nothing to offer and his material is junk.

In fact, his product is banned from the shelves of Wal-Mart Department stores. I stand tall, together with Rabbis, Christian leaders, parents, neighbors, and communities who questioned the reasoning behind having this rapper's infomercial inserted into the Muppet Movie.

Urban parents want positive role models for their children. This rapper's deviant lifestyle is a loser lifestyle, not a fashion statement.

Respectfully,
Patty E.
Email: pegerer@aol.com

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by frogboy4
Right on, sis!

*grins* Y'know, we could really run with that gag...you, me and anyone else here with Scooter in their user name/avatar... :D

And a note to Patty...have you been paying attention to ANYTHING we've said? Or are you just spouting off stuff without bothering to read what other people have said, especially if they don't agree with you? I'm sorry if that's not the case and if I have offended you, but that's what you are coming across as on my screen.

-Kim

[manoftheSTREET]

I side with my fellow Muppet fans on this matter.

While not a fan of Snoop myself, I think his appearance would've been jake by any means. Why?

For that, think of these names:

-Spike Lee (provocative filmmaker)
-James Gandolfini (star of the profane mob series "The Sopranos")
-Goo Goo Dolls (members of the band have admitted to heroin addiction)

What do they all have in common?

All have delved in controversial matters, but all have appeared on "Sesame Street" as well. They didn't bring in offensiveness of any sort...they helped out matters of education while providing good entertainment for parents watching the "Street" with their kids.

For me to find this okay, but to object to Snoop's appearance (or non-appearance now), seemed slimy to me. I examined my soul, and decided "It's for everybody. Muppets don't believe in conforming...they've celebrated their uniqueness in all manners of movies, TV and music. The Muppets represent individuality...why repress it?"

So, Muppet fans, I'm on your side...retain Snoop's cameo at least for the DVD, and let limits not be put on the Muppets.

Sincerely,

John "manoftheSTREET" Kilduff

Power to the people, the lovers, the dreamers and everybody!

[tomahawk]

patty e. if you really think that snoop is that evil please do everone a favor and pick up a newspaper. see the thing is that we don't live in a perfect world. i mean come on even the "president" is a self-admitted coke fiend, and also has a drunk driving record. see if it were a perfect world jim henson, richard hunt, john lennon and a handful of others would still be with us and people like celine dion, yanni and micheal(i celabrate his entire catolog)bolton would be asking all of us the same question,"would you like fries with that".

[Jivepuppet]

I can be very opinionated, but I am open minded. Thanks to those who agreed, and even more thanks to those who don't, but read with open minds. What makes Muppet Central's forum so great is we can all stand up and say how we feel, and still all love the crazy puppets! I'm not saying let everyone guest with the Muppets. Charles Manson would be a bad idea, but Marilyn Manson, singing at the piano with Rowlf, would leave me laughing for days. I don't really care about any of these "guests" personal agendas, politics, addictions, fetishes, and so on. What I do care about is if it's funny or entertaining. None of us have seen the Snoop clip, so none of us know if it's good.
I don't know if I can say anymore about this other than if we keep our minds closed then we NEVER learn.
Jon
jivepuppet@aol.com

[Jivepuppet]

.... and just think, all this started over a grown man named Snoop!

[AruggeRadio]

Here is what bothers me about this more then anything. It is very common for TV movies to have portions of the final film edited out of it, Woody Allen made a TV Movie for ABC about 7 years ago that over 45mn were omitted form the final product. They have to fit a film into the allotted time given by the network. But as far as Snoop Dog being omitted because of a letter sent by a watchdog group is ludicrous.

The Muppets have always been on the edge of what we think is family friendly, True Sesame Street is totally for kids, but the Muppets as a whole were always more along the lines of the Original Loonies Toon’s then Disney. When the Muppets were on SNL (which those skits are playing on E! SNL re-runs) there segments dealt with sex, drugs, and other adult situations. In 1978 when radio stations were banning Alice Cooper for his rebel anthem “Schools out forever” Henson decided to have Alice on the Muppet Show to perform that controversial song with his Muppets. The Muppets have always stuck there tong out to Watchdog groups that believe that we need to live in the stone age to save our children.

I agree with you that Snoop Dog has had a questionable record, and hasn’t always presented a family friendly product in his records. But he has successfully used his life stories to express himself and show how he got himself out of his life of poverty. Snoop Dog is a self made man and now has gone on record as saying he is a devoted Family man. So I don’t see how your argument Patty of him corrupting our children by being on Muppet Movie has any relevance what so ever. The Muppets have always been the rebel of the “Family” entertainment genera so Snoop Dog fits in quite well with the Muppets I believe.

To say that the Henson Company deciding to omit this scene with Snoop Dog as a victory for Watchdog Groups everywhere is truly a fallacy. Remember if it wasn’t for Watch Dog Groups “Married with Children” would have just faded away into TV history as a failed low rated sitcom. But because watchdog groups complained about the show to the media it backfired. It gained the show so much press that it caught the American public’s curiosity so they tuned in and made “Married with Children” part of our cultural history.

I don’t believe the Henson’s Company’s decision to use Snoop Dog was a bad one at all. In fact if there are guest stars on this New Fox show I hope they do have some people like Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre, Eve, Missy Elliot or Emenem on as guests. Whether you like it or not these people are a part of our culture and are important artists. If you don’t agree with what they do or say in there records you have the option of just not purchasing there albums. If you don’t agree with the Henson Company use of such artists then you also have the option of not tuning in to watch the show.

CW

[Jivepuppet]

Dear AruggeRadio,
You have said it all! Thank you. Keep it up.
With much respect,
Jivepuppet

[frogboy4]

And what about David Bowie in Labyrinth? I love that film and enjoy Bowie, but he has reportedly had a sordid past. And listen to many of his classic lyrics...

[Cantus' Ghost]

Look, I never said we shouldn't accept anyone who is pro-war or pro-capital punishment. I've stated my opinion that Laura Bush and her loverboy are no better than Snoop Dogg. At least when Snoop Dogg is "socially unacceptable" he is as part of his schtick; George W. killed declared a war 4000 Afghans (mostly unarmed.) That is not an opinion, that is a simple fact! (source at bottom of msg) Laura Bush encouraged this in the media and through GOP radio addresses. It is simply unacceptable- no less unacceptable than 9/11.

I just think its absurd that everything in the entertainment industry has to be "family friendly." What makes the Muppets great is when they're outrageous, irreverant, anarchic, etc. That's what makes any form of entertainment good. Not the willingness to adapt to some lame, banal, "baked-potato", conservative Bible belt code of ethics. The Henson Co. has acted responsibly with great consistency and do not deserve to be bullied. If you're offended by Snoop Dogg's appearance in this Muppet movie or any movie, don't watch!

Lemme put this way: why is Laura Bush a good rolemodel? Because she promotes literacy? Well, doesn't EVERYONE promote literacy?

I know Snoop Dogg & Laura Bush are from two VERY different worlds. Snoop Dogg grew up in S. Central LA, one of the most violent and poverty-stricken areas in the U.S.; Laura Bush comes from wealth. But the indifference of Laura Bush to the deaths of 4000 Afghans, the highest ever rates of capital punishment in America, the promotion of MORE WAR, etc. seems to be more irresponsible than Snoop Dogg's "pottymouth." As for the Hensons, I say it is time for the Muppets to forge an "appalling" alliance with Ms. Courtney Love! Oh baby!


http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0208/cotts.php

[towels]

Originally posted by grail
wow...the two best comments i've yet read on the subject...jivepuppet, you officially need to talk more, and cantus' ghost, welcome to the group! excellent points from you both!

See grail? Aren't you glad we kept going?
:D

Originally posted by Patty E.
A child need NOT be assaulted with violent images, vulgarity, trashy talk and demeaning references towards women.

You refer to his appearance as a "cameo." I call it an infomerical.
Originally posted by Captain Crouton
But it's good parents who stand up when anti-family programming is marketed as family entertainment.
As a consumer of Muppet Products, I'd like them to stay classy and not trashy.

That's an awful lot of judgement of something you have never seen.
Here's two things to keep in mind:
1) I have a hard time seeing this as an "infomercial." Did you consider Richard Pryor's appearance in the Muppet Movie as a promotional tool for Columbian Drug Lords? I have enough faith in what's left of JHC to have anyone doing a cameo to just do a cameo. That's all they are, a person in a movie. If it leads your children into watching his videos later on MTV and then being exposed to those "references", that's your fault for letting them watch MTV, not Henson's fault for including him. He doesn't get some happy fuzzy Kermit pin to wear as a shining badge of honor for the rest of his life as a result of this one scene in a TV movie.
2) He said he was doing this for his kids. Let's just say he is trying to clean up his image. Thanks to the grandstanding and moralizing, now the nice thing he did for his kids is gone. What kind of message does that send? Thanks for trying to climb out of the gutter, but we don't want you here?

[Drtooth]

Thanks Pat E. for all you're hard whining!!! Now the only scene with the Electric Mayheim is cut because of you and your censorship cronies!!!

I SEVERLY doubt that he would use hypnotic lyrics to kids telling them to cap mommy and steal her money for drugs!!! What kind of half butted crap is that??? COme on!!!

Why don't you do something helpful and try to get Jerry Springer's @#$% butt off the air!?!?!?

Thanks for Killing the Muppet Christmas movie and making it the 20 minutes of muppets interrupted by stupid commercials we'vew seen a million times special!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

With forthy aloofness, Drtooth!!!

[tomahawk]

THE WHO
BLOODHOUND GANG
TENACIOUS D
JIMI HENDRIX
PINK FLOYD
INCUBUS
THE BEATLES
JOHN LENNON
ELTON JOHN
BILLY JOEL
EMINEM
IRON MAIDEN
MADONNA
TED NUGENT
AEROSMITH
OZZY OSBOURNE
THE DOORS
LED ZEPPLIN
QUEEN
DEF LEPPARD
FRANK SINATRA
BEACH BOYS
U2
DAVE MATHEWS BAND
STONE TEMPLE PILOTS
TOOL
RUSH
PRIMUS
OASIS
EAGLES
KORN
NO DOUBT
quote-"we are one diverse bunch of people."-blue dreamer
quote-"thats what makes this place go 'round."-cantus rock
i was perplexed when i did some research in another thread called what other music do you like besides muppet music. i took a sample from different lists(from people who agreed and disagreed with patty e. on the snoop thing)and started wondering whats the difference between snoop having a short cameo on the muppet christmas special and endorsing these artist by buying thier c.d.s, going to thier concerts etc. all of them have either involved in a degrading act, been accused of drug or alclhol consumption and yes a few have been in trouble for violent acts(yes, murder)andother unsavory acts.

[tomahawk]

patty e. i was wondering when you wer going to get around to answering my question on what your definition on degrading is. and also while i am thinking about it, what freakish watchdog, rightwing, self-righteous group do you belong to. i mean were you sent here on orders from the higher ups to try and convince fans this was the right thing to do? are you really a muppet fan or just someone, in the name of thier group, that likes to tear others down.can anyone smell witchhunt? i sure can.gather up your torches, because we are gonna catch us a snoop dog.

[Drtooth]

You know, for a Right wing parental watchdog group, you people don't watchy anything, do you? There are worse things on prime time than SNoop dog being on the Muppets. I saw a J-lo perfume comercial that boardered on pornography. Look at the rest of the programs on NBC (the network carrying the special). ALl lame sex jokes. Look at Will and Grace! I'm surprised a gay rights antidefamation group didn't picket it! NOT TO MENTION DAYTIME TALK SHOWS!

Besides that the muppets are NOT kids stuff!! You're one of those narrow minded hicks that confuses The Muppet Show with Sesame Street!!!!! Kids today either don't know who the Muppets are, or would rather watch pornography anyway!!! Maybe if there wasn't all this over zealous censorship mascarading as "Parenting" this group of Latchkey kids would not overlook over censored kids shows for Jerry Springer!!!!!

This is where the country has gone wrong!!!!!!!

[Stryder Wolfe]

I read through this entire post and I gotta say, it's pretty amusing...

now, I don't care if Snoop is on the muppets or not...although the lack of electric mayhem saddens me...I've never heard a song of his in my life, and although I don't approve of some of his choies, I'm a foirm believer in not judging others...

anyhw, what I DON'T beleive in is watchdog groups. I beleive that I should have the right to choose for myself and any minors in my charge what is appropriate to watch. Censorship is not a good thing. Case in point, if "watchdog" groups had been successful 2000 years ago, we wouldn't have a Christian bible today (of course,back then, instead of letter writing, it was lion feeding time). You sure wouldn't have shakespeare either. Not to mention say, Anne Frank's Diary...there's a lot of really good material out there that have been targetted by watchdog groups of the past....

Oh, about sex and violence in media. Do you let your kids read the bible? Cause there's some pretty heavy pornograpic material in there. Anyone read song of solomon? (especially if you have the correct translation, where the word "navel" or "bellybutton" is more accurately translated as "******"). Now, you're going to say that Solomon was speaking about his wife, but the guy had about 40 of them. This was the wisest man ever? what about King David, a confessed murderer and adulterer? Lot, the only man worth saving in soddom and gommorah offered his two virgin daughters up to be raped by a viscious mob and was rewarded by God for it! Makes Judas betrayal seem like kid stuff....Jacob, founder of the land of israel, lied and tricked his father and brother, and showed great pride towards God...Moses was a drunkard, as was Abraham, who also cheated on his wife. I forget who it was who got drunk and allowed himself to be seduced by both his daughters? The disciples of Jesus were all deadbeat dads....

Anyhow, that's probably enough to get my point across. All of the above mentioned biblical examples were redeemable. Why isn't Snoop? And why should e be censored when these stories aren't? It's a double standard....

But then, that's why, even though I'm christian, I refuse to join a church...the entire faith is very hypocritical....

but enough about that...I have to go think of more muppety stuff :)

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Stryder Wolfe
(especially if you have the correct translation, where the word "navel" or "bellybutton" is more accurately translated as "******"). .

You know, I've never seen any asterixes in the Bible... better check that out!

again, by Stryder Wolfe But then, that's why, even though I'm christian, I refuse to join a church...the entire faith is very hypocritical....


Don't get me started. Think of the Rightwing Religious zealots that kill people so there won't be abortions. And the same people who love their fellow man... only if he is white, strait, rich, and male. And don't get me started about oter religions, and Suicide bombers. Trust me! I'll never stop.

I cannot stand people blinded so much by their own faith, reading between the lines, that they can't even read the real lines!!!

[Stryder Wolfe]

what an odd word to be censored..umm...well, the ***** was the scientifically correct and not at all dirty word for the primary sex characterstic of a woman.

[Patty E.]

Gang appeal has no appeal, it's neither "funny or zany" even in Muppet land.

Ask the business owner robbed at gunpoint, or the parents of an innocent child executed by gang members. A deviant lifestyle and life of crime is why one joins the CRIPS. If he denounced his ties with this very violent and destructive group who conducted the interview, where is the article? Instead, he acts like a calling card.:cool:

Respectfully,
Patty E.

[Thog]

I don't use a calling card.
I use 1-800 Call ATT Free for me, Cheap for them!

Bless Carrot Top!

[towels]

Originally posted by Patty E.
Gang appeal has no appeal, it's neither "funny or zany" even in Muppet land.
Respectfully,
Patty E.

Actually, I thought the Daily Show story on the hot new reading trend referencing the New York City street kids (with a shot from Sesame Street) was incredibly funny. I laughed and laughed.

Oh, and Patty, I think if you don't start answering people's questions, neither you, nor your points will be taken very seriously.

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by tomahawk
patty e. if you really think that snoop is that evil please do everone a favor and pick up a newspaper. see the thing is that we don't live in a perfect world. i mean come on even the "president" is a self-admitted coke fiend, and also has a drunk driving record. see if it were a perfect world jim henson, richard hunt, john lennon and a handful of others would still be with us and people like celine dion, yanni and micheal(i celabrate his entire catolog)bolton would be asking all of us the same question,"would you like fries with that".


Ha ha!!:D Me likey! Oh, you kidz...

[Stryder Wolfe]

I doubt she actually reads any of the other posts...just comes in here to sprout propaganda

well, I should give her some credit..she skims over them perhaps....

[Cantus' Ghost]

[i] Apparently, Mr. Rivkin is interested in making "vulgar" fashionable.

Respecfully,
Patty E.
[/B]

Wow! Isn't that just a tad bit completely insane?

I love vulgar humour. "Strangers with Candy," John Waters, Margaret Cho, you name it. If its filthy and like poison to America's impressionable minds, I'm all for it.

Okay, so I'm being sarcastic. I place INTELLIGENCE & ORIGINALITY over leanings toward either vulgarity or purity.
P.S. I just downloaded a Snoop Dogg song and, as a result, I've chosen to devote my life to profanity, pornography, violence and illicit substances. Behold the power of some guy named 'Snoop.'

[Thog]

Originally posted by Cantus' Ghost
Wow! Isn't that just a tad bit completely insane?

I love vulgar humour. "Strangers with Candy," John Waters, Margaret Cho, you name it. If its filthy and like poison to America's impressionable minds, I'm all for it.



Strangers With Candy is my all time favorite show!
I miss it and want them to put it on DVD. But since it is so impure and vulgar and not good for me to see, I don't think I will ever see that day come.

[beaker]

>>>A deviant lifestyle and life of crime is why one joins the CRIPS. <<<

What is this, 1988? *brings back memories of Metroid, NWA gangsta rap tapes, and ALF reruns*


>>>Anyhow, that's probably enough to get my point across. All of the above mentioned biblical examples were redeemable.<<<

I hate to say this, but I think due to the mostly disturbing nature of bibles...be it the Torah, Qur'an, or Testament...excerpts from said scripture dont belong on here. No wonder so many wars have been fought over these words. If the bible were truly be made into a movie word for word, its be NC-17.

>>>Don't get me started. Think of the Rightwing Religious zealots that kill people so there won't be abortions. And the same people who love their fellow man... only if he is white, strait, rich, and male. And don't get me started about oter religions, and Suicide bombers. Trust me! I'll never stop.<<<

Heh, well I swore 4 years ago after the whole "Odyssey" debate on the old MC, I wouldnt get involved in this debate.
But yes, fundamentalists and extremists have really done a doozy on the idea of religions. But when youre introduced from birth to a faith its hard to know anythign else.

My idea on religion? Its silly, because it is ALL geographic.
If you were born in the middle east youd be Muslim...Israel youd be Jewish. India youd be Sikh or Hindu, etc. So people who really stand behind their religion, are primarily doing so due to basic geographic happenstance for the most part. As far as people complaining about Christain fundamentalists in America. Just be glad you dont live in Israel or surrounding middle eastern countries. There, religion and life is so intertwined its enought to make your head explode. Here in the states, you can chose on your own what faith you want to adhere to, be it Judaism, Christianity and its billions of offshoots, Buddhism, Islam, etc.

[tomahawk]

NC-17???? TRY XXX!!

[Drtooth]

To Pat E.

Never in my life, have I seen anyone say, "man! I just heard a Snoop Dog song! Now I want to deal drugs and kill people."

Why the heck are you idiot censors screaming if any kind of program that may be Juveniley attractive, while so much other show boarder on pornography?

I mean, come on! I don't think a little five year old will watch this (if they didn't pull it) and say....WOW!!! I wanna be a gansta too! I wanna deal drugs because some guy on TV has songs about it!

Maybe you should spend more time picketing Jerry Springer and Jenny Jones than Ren and Stimpy, the Simpsons, and the Muppets.

Get a clue!!!

[Skeeter Muppet]

Oh, and Patty, I think if you don't start answering people's questions, neither you, nor your points will be taken very seriously.

*snorts* What makes you think we're taking her seriously now? Well, those of us who have been replying as of late, that is.

But you do have a valid point. It makes me wonder whether or not she even cares what the rest of us think, whether we agree with her or not.

-Kim

[Patty E.]

Where is the article or interview where Calvin AKA "Snoop" dissociates himself from the CRIPS? Most gang members die on the street or in prison. If he has separated himself from that loser lifestyle then he should be proud. Imagine the contribution he could make for children "at risk" if in fact he renounced that nonsense.

Respectfully,
Patty E.:cool:

[EmmyMik]

I have been reading this thread, and it's pretty silly to see how some people sound very much like Sam the Eagle. I had to blink a few times.

But if an artist shouldn't work with the Muppets just because they have written songs about drugs and sex, or they have used drugs in the past is silly. I'm sure that there would only be a handful of episodes of The Muppet Show.

Take Paul Simon for example. He appeared on Sesame Street a couple of times, as well as the Muppet Show. In the 60's he did drugs. After concerts he and Art Garfunkel would go back to their hotel rooms and smoke pot. It wasn't until around 1970 that he quit doing drugs.

But then there were his song lyrics. Some have references to drugs, sex, crime, suicide, and so on (not all at once, and not as "graphic" as today's songs, but they're still in there).

Honestly, I thought it would have been pretty funny to see Snoop with the Muppets. But I'll never know now...

[frogboy4]

I think it's going a little too far with the insults and there hasbeen some inflammatory language on both sides here.

I know things are heated on the forum right now but lets not make it personal. This originated as a healthy debate about the Muppet special; there has been no wrongdoing between members but it is definitely heading in that direction.

This is really about difference of opinion, but I can see this getting out of hand quickly. I'm all for a civil debate but lets not lose site that we should respect the opinions of others. Patty certainly did not single-handedly ruin Christmas or make the decision to delete the scene. No individual has that control. That is up to Henson. We are some very passionate Muppet fans indeed!

[Patty E.]

Snoop has the distinction of belonging to the Crips, ( a violent and destructive force), he advocates a gang lifestyle, promotes a pimpin' lifestyle. This makes him very different from Guests which have proceeded him.

Respectfully,
Patty E.
:cool:

[beaker]

1. I respect Patty E's opinions...you remember the outright inflamatory things said on that 'Sesame HIV' thread? This aint nothin folks, if ya remember that.

2. Doesnt "Patty E" Sound like a gangsta rapper? Patty, I kid.
(I make a habbit of inane observations, heh)

Patty E has a legitamate concern she raises. Yes it sounds glaringly like the parody Sam the Eagle is suppose to be at time, but out of all the JHC guests Snoop does seem to take the cake in terms of shadyness. I could understand if, say Marilyn Manson was to do the letter of the day on Sesame Street.

JHC has usually gone with PG rappers(ie: Coolio) so its weird theyd go with a washed out rapper. I think they should have gone with Busta Rhymes, as he just seems more Muppety.
(any rapper who references Star Wars in a song is cool beans with me)

Sadly though, I worry if really cool Muppet segments might have been editied out in an effort of JHC to coddle to various outspoken people and censors...or were we saved from an embarassing cameo ala Hulk Hogan in MFS?

[frogboy4]

Lets hope there are extras on the DVD! I wonder if they will sell one - this year or next. hopefully they will have the offer in a commercial during the program. A current practice. Maybe some of these extra minutes will be seen by our overseas friends if it gets aired over there.

Would it be the same sort of thing if P. Ditty..or is is Puff Daddy again... appeared. Maybe so, but probably not as much. And Snoop seemed so proud of his work on the Conan O'Brian Show.

[CaptCrouton]

Hey, sorry I've missed the show. I got tired of this thread and didn't realize people were talking about/to me. Guess I wanted to take my blows if we're throwing rocks at the fundamental Christians again. *sigh* This is why I left my last forum.

I think I'm established enough in the MC Forum to express my opinions without people saying I'm here just to "spout propaganda." Maybe a few people will still like me when we're done. I'm always amazed at how much people who cry "Tolerance" really aren't so tolerant and despise conservative religious people. It's okay, because Jesus said to love your enemies.

Entertainers have a certain obligation to those they entertain. It's the nature of the beast. You can't entertain without an audience. Now they don't have to listen, but that's at the expense of losing their audience. Remember Kermit went to Hollywood to "make millions of people happy." But the studios say, "Hey Kerm, those millions of people need to pay up, or no next film."

Like it or not, Henson hasn't been successful when they strayed away from a certain kind of family faire. I mean, you hardcore guys like the Dark Crystal and Labyrinth. Some of you even like Gortch, if you've seen it. But in "The Works" those projects were considered disappointments. DC, I believe, was too ahead of it's time, and too distant from what people wanted. I didn't care for Labyrinth. Gortch was just a bad idea. Now that's all my opinion, but I think millions of soccer moms and minivan drivers agreed to some extent. They walked away saying, "Those aren't the Muppets I love." All the ideas were revolutionary, edgy, and stretched the boundaries of puppetry in our cultural mindset. But they all pretty much bombed. Henson learned the hard lesson. Millions of people were not happy.

Every day we vote by our feet and our wallets and our emails and letters. You don't like fundamental Christians or their views? You have the ability to communicate just like they do. And they've been losing. Look how much TV has changed in the past 20 years. There is no prime time show with Andy Griffith values (or humor for that matter).

Start your own petition entreating Henson to keep Snoop if you like. But I don't think Henson or Kermit wants to be associated with a guy who promotes:

1) Disrespect and abuse of women. (Citing lyrics from ("B**** Please") and ("Doin' Too Much") and how about the lyrics "[I'd] smack a b**** in a second."

2) Non-Muppety Violence ("If n-ggas step out of line, I shoot 'em in their spine and break their necks," "Playin' with my AK . . . takin' a life or two")

3) Glamorization of drugs and alchohol (Citing "Freestyle Conversation" and maybe "Dolomite" in which he said if he would legalize marijuana and prostitution) I don't want to look further, thank you. I just feel polluted by all the vulgarity.

Snoop isn't all bad, he does love his momma. But I think Snoop put it best when he said, "Do I look like a mutha******* role model?"

Now Henson has never expressed why they disassociated themselves with Dogg. But he's really not known for promoting literacy. (Sorry Cantus' Ghost, but you were talking to me) I applaud the decision, regardless. And that's my opinion. In the USA I'm still at liberty to express it. I think it was endowed by my Creator.

I know I've only answered one or two questions that have been tossed in my general direction. But there are many of you, and few of me. So please bear with me.

Markus

[Jivepuppet]

To Patty E

I've posted on this thread a few times, and stated my opinion, and nothing offended me untill you brougt gangs into it.

I grew up in a neighborhood where gangs were a way of life. It wasn't a bad neighborhood, but the bad ones were only moments away. It's very obvious you have no idea what you're talking about when you bash Mr. Broadus for joining a gang. Sometime you HAVE to just to survive. You should feel lucky that it wasn't you. I do. I was lucky, amd I'm grateful for it. Some of my freinds in my younger years (I'm mid Twenties now) barely survived EVERY weeked of their lives for over a decade because of gangs. But, on the other side I've seen gangs do wonderful things for their communities, and not all gangs are out "slappin' da hoes, and pinpin' wit 40 ounces of malt and a gat" as the media has led many to believe.


This will be my last post on the subject. I'm bored of it, and very annoyed, which a first on Muppet Central for me. What it comes down to is the scene in question is out, and at least another half hour also, so really we all lose, because less Muppets, is less fun.

Jon
jivepuppet@aol.com
feel free to email me

[AruggeRadio]

I also hope that Henson Co includes the full version of the film in a later DVD or cable airing of the film.

Ok a lot more points have been brought up sense the last time I posted so let me state my opinion on a few of these things. First is Patty E’s posting bashing Snoop Dog for being a part of a gang. Patty E if you had ever taken 5mn to actually sit down an listen to a Snoop Dog album you would know that most of what he says in his music is there is a better way to go then joining a gang. He talks about the problems of his life and the downfall of some of the decisions he has made. But as Jon (Jivepuppet) stated if you grew up in a situation like Snoop Dog did you would have probably gone to join a Gang as well just so you could survive another day. The Muppets have always been supportive of important artists like Snoop Dog. You can enjoy Snoop Dog or not but he is a very important person in the evolution of Hip Hop. Taking it from an underground phenomena to a world wide community of artists.

If you look at the history of the Muppets, Snoop Dog by far isn’t the first person who has worked with the group who has come form questionable backgrounds. Many of us have stated Coolio as a PG rated rapper, I happen to really enjoy Coolio but in no way was his work PG. Gangsters Paradise talks about Gang banging, also a lot of his music talks about Drug and other objectionable material. He certainly isn’t MC Hammer, Coolio although he had quite a bit of Pop Success talks about the same type of things in his music as Snoop Dog dose. He just wasn’t as predominate a force in the furthering of the hip hop genera therefore these things are not as public when we talk about his work as we do when we think of Snoop Dog.

One other post mentioned Paul Simon. When Paul Simon was on the Muppet show the Muppets and Simon preformed “Scarborough Fair”, which many over time have believed to be a song about smoking marijuana. Garth Brooks was a guest on the Muppets Tonight. Many of his most popular songs are about mass alcohol consumption, domestic abuse and other social issues. Also the song he preformed on the Muppet Tonight ‘We Shall Be Free” has a pro homosexuality theme to it which caused it to be banned on many country stations when it first was released in 1992.

This is what annoys me the most about groups that believe that just because an artist talks about gangs, drugs sex that they should be kept from our kids at all cost. Is that most of them don’t listen to the music or see the film to even form an educated opinion. When Eminem song “The way I am” came out he got a lot of flack for this lyric ‘Middle America Now its a tragedy now its so sad to see, an Upper class city, havin this happenin then attack Eminem cause i rap this way.’ Instead of looking at this as a bold Dylanesque use of lyricism they attack him because they believe he tried to make light of something, Instead of seeing that he is just pointing out that we have ignored these problems in our intercity for years now. It is because of people spewing ignorance like that that these problems continue and it will take a whole lot more then just writing some letters that give you a false sense of doing something to solve these problems. Parent your kids, I wouldn’t allow my kids to listen to a gangster rap album at the age of 5, but I wouldn’t stop them form seeing a show featuring one of these artists and would never stop others form seeing it as well.

[tomahawk]

capt.crouton,
maybe you should go back and read the list of performers that have worked with the muppets in the past, do some research on thier lyrics, thier pasts etc. let us know what you come up with.

[grail]

man...what is there something in the water that's making us all nasty recently? Patty's arguments may be a bit out there, but she's still entitled to them...stop beating her up about it.

that being said, i think Patty needs to sit down and watch Kevin Smith's "Dogma". people protested this movie because it was "spitting in the face of god", but none of the people protesting had seen the movie. many people who have watched it (myself included) have found themselves with a renewed interest in their religion and why they practice it. it really makes you think.

which brings me to my point, to be perfectly honest, a lot of the "against" arguments seem to be knee-jerk reaction to a persona, and what the public perception of that persona is. now, i actually agree with that he shouldn't be in the flick, but that's just because i personally don't like him, and would rather see someone like the guys from They Might Be Giants pop up. in the future, having an opinion is fine, but have the FACTS to back it up, don't come in spouting rhetoric that you got from someone else, just because they told it to you (which oddly enough, is kinda one of the themes of Dogma).

to everyone else...lighten up, and stop beating on the new people, it's not fair.

to aruggeradio - i'm not a country fan, and never knew that about "We Shall Be Free". now i'm conflicted...i hate giving cool points to country singers, and i've already had to give him more than i like giving to ANYBODY in a 10-gallon hat...heh

to captcrouton - i hate admitting this, but there are some surprisingly strong arguments to the legalization of both pot and prostitution. some people have actually apparantly done some heavy research into it, and though i hate it...i'm beginning to think they may have a point...i think that the only reason it hasn't been done already is that it would be political suicide for anyone who agreed to it. of course saying that makes this "good" little mormon-boy look like a sexfiend and a pothead, right? trust me, nothing is further from the truth...

[tomahawk]

there's something wrong with being a sex fiend and a pothead? when was this flyer handed out?

[grail]

heh...depends on who you ask, i guess...i just wanted to point out that those weren't MY choices. i just think they seem to have a better argument than the opposition's "because it's wrong", and was giving them credit for that.

[CaptCrouton]

Tomahawk

I hope you didn't think I did an insufficient task of researching. It certainly wasn't a good time for me. On the other hand, I didn't spend any time at all finding the info. It's not like I had to dig up through documents finding something, anything scandal worthy to make him look bad.

However, my purpose isn't to find skeletons of the past of every performer on the Muppet Show, but merely to cite a few examples of why Henson, as family entertainers, might want to distance themselves from the artist.

Certainly few of us haven't done things we're ashamed of. But for Snoop, that's his entire message. It's his mission. Maybe as a follow up, let me suggest to you that you find a song written by Snoop that would be appropriate for the Muppet Show without editing. Any other recording artist that Muppets have had, I think I can find one easily. In fact, the Paul Simon episode was all his music. I don't see the drug reference in Scarborough Fair, but I wasn't looking for it. It sounds like the substance of urban legends. But again, I don't have to speculate about meaning with Snoop at all.

Of course, you might consider anything to be appropriate. But what I'm asking, in my challenge, is for anything free from profanity, glamorization of drugs, murder, violence, disrespect of women. I think the quest could be quite insightful. I think the only song I could find that even came close was "I Love my Momma" and even that had a few vulgarities, drug references, sexual ref, etc. While the basic message of the song is good and honoring, as much as Snoop can for his praying mum, all those things are what makes up his persona, not just his past.

Again, I'm not on a witch hunt. I hope you win this challenge.

[CaptCrouton]

Oh, I apologize. There are no sex references to "I Love My Momma." I misread a line. So just drug ref and profanities.

[Drtooth]

I just don't think that people should try to censor kid's shows (even though the Muppets are not a kids show) when there are more pressing matters to be dealt with. I still think the main focus should be to get rid of Jerry Springer, Jenny Jones, Dating shows, and MTV's stunt show, whose name I can't mention (it's another word for donkey). These shows poison kid's minds. It teaches them disrespect, and that pain and torment are fun, as long as you do it to other people. Kids in my neighborhood are EVIL!! There's no other word to discribe them. This is the reason why so many school shootings took place. Not because of Snoop Doggy Dog, but becasue no one was taught to respect and love their fellow man. I was, and I only say mean things (repeat SAY mean Things) when I lose my temper.

I think that Snoop Dog's censorship is not quite as valid as trashy talk shows and those shows in which people set fire to themselves, only so little brats can laugh at them!

Do us all a favor and get Jerry Springer cancelled next? Please?

[CaptCrouton]

Grail,

We are coming from different world views when it comes to substance abuse and issues. While this discussion probably warrants another thread, let me try to keep it on the subject.

All drugs, including legal ones like alchohol and cigarettes destroy lives. I don't think they should be glamorized. I have at least one friend who's pot addiction killed him, and many more who died of lung cancer from cigs, drunk driving, etc.

Another interesting study is how prohibition could've worked and the sharp decline in crime as a result. But of course, you can find a study to support whatever you want. Especially if you're a pot head.

As far as prostitution is concerned, I know it's just another case of the cheapening of intimacy. I don't know what the LDS (Mormon) church teaches, but Biblically, we believe that sex is more than just the exchange of bodily fluids. It is the most intimate form of fellowship that is only to be reserved for the safety of a marital relationship. When you mess with sex, even beyond all the STD's that are spread, you're messing with people's souls, their minds, and emotions.

I know all the missiles are locked on my target now. But I really live the things I believe. I am waiting for my wife because I think it's the most incredible wedding gift you can give the one person you'll spend the rest of your life with. Because you can only give your purity to one person, and I want my honeymoon to be more than just our first family vacation. So prostitution, from my perspective, is a joke.

But back to Snoop and the Muppets, neither the glamorization of drugs or prostitution is suitable on the show. Maybe we should just save this for another thread.

[Cantus]

To Patty. E

Just because YOU feel as though Snoop Dog is some sort of evil presence, doesnt mean that the rest of us have to miss out on what could have been a brilliant cameo. Snoop Dog himself said it was awesome to work with the muppets, and now because of you, they've removed him from the film altogether. You should have at least put forward a petition! Nobody should be allowed to speak on behalf of anyone unless it's documented officially. And what was this informercial/cameo garbage?! I suppose then that Michael Caine, who has also led a life of sex, drugs and alcohol abuse, is out on some infomercial or cheap promotion for his next film then? Or how about Matthew Lillard, I suppose he's just there to promote his films like SLC Punk, 13 Ghosts or even Scream for that matter? Where were you when they decided to put Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolow in Muppets from Space (no offense to Rob Shneider, it's just a matter of principal)?
Cameo's are not promotional matterial, that's what ads are for. Take a good hard look at everyone who's cameo'd in a muppet movie, or been on a muppet show and then reassess what you've done. If Snoop Dog stood for violence and all that, then why isn't he locked up for life? Why, I'll tell you why, because his music is aimed at a market. And not all his stuff is about disrespect, sex, drugs and violence, take a look at his song for Undercover Brother for example. And so what if he decides to direct a porno? You don't need to tell your kids that, and it's not as though they're gonna go immediately after seeing someone in a muppet movie they PROBABLY WON'T RECOGNISE, look him up on the internet and go "Oh my goodness he made a porn movie!...What's a porn movie mom?" Cameo's are not brainwashing material, they are there for the audience. The only person here being brainwashed by anything is you.
Jeez, I used to watch muppet movies all the time and sure i'd seen some people before in other movies, but most of the time i was completely oblivious to who the actor was, and i think you'll find that most kids will still be the same. And as everyone else here has pointed out, the muppet show was the older brother of the sesame street gang. Aimed at a more MATURE and UNDERSTANDING audience. The pilot episode was entitled SEX & VIOLENCE for crying out loud!
It's people like you who rob kids of what they cherish on TV during their childhood years. My favourite show growing up was The Real Ghostbusters, and it was axed, because parents were complaining about what THEY saw. It was axed because apparently it was too violent. It's Ghostbusters, where is the violence? Batman, Spiderman, TMNT, Ren and Stimpy (suffering as the muppets did) Rocko's Modern Life, Invader Zim (both suffering as being labelled as kids shows) were all axed because ADULTS complained about the violence. If you don't want your kid watching it, dont let them, but dont let other kids suffer too.
If there was one thing I learnt from Jim Henson and everyone at the JHC, it was to accept everyone, no matter what their creed, race, religion, background, gender...WHATEVER...and if you truly supported the JHC and Jim Henson and his colleagues, you would think likewise and have faith in what they're doing. You need to sit down and watch some Fraggle Rock and open your ears, your eyes and more importantly your mind, because what you've said and done certainly doesn't seem like something a true supporter of the Jim Henson dream would do.

[tomahawk]

the thing is capt. crouton, your direct quote was, "i don't think henson or kermit want to be associated with a guy who promotes..etc.etc.
first off, he was put in the film in the first place and for some reason, whether it was really production costs(wink, wink,nudge, nudge) or our ever so thougtful, looking out for other peoples best interest watchdog groups decided they couldn't find a heavy-metal band that seduced a young mind into commiting suicide, so they decided to pull themselves away from cbn and start some trouble with henson and snoop.
the only reason i said what i said was the henson organization has always performed with people who were on the edge, regardless of public opinion. i'm not attacking anyone for thier beliefs on this, i'm attacking groups and individuals who think it's thier calling in life to CHOOSE what is good for everyone. i have a one and a half year old daughter, i would have sat and watched the christmas special withsnoop dog with her watching. she wouldn't have known the difference. just like alot of kids even older. see its the parents job to teach and nurture and explain all of these things to thier own child, not some crazy power hungery mob.

[Stryder Wolfe]

jsut a couple of thoughts:

Dogma's a great movie - everyone should see it and if they can't laugh at it, and take away something as well, then they oughta reevaluate how seriously they're taking life, IMO...

oh, Scarborough Fair is a traditional song dating back a LOT longer than the 60's...the only possible marijuana reference in it is the backing vocals that Garfunkel does on the original recording, and even that is doubtful, but in any case that's moot as those backing vocals were not included in the muppet episode in question.

Although, if you think that henson and company weren't at least occasionally getting high in 60's and 70's you're being naive. (again, IMO, I have no proof of same and no motivation to gather any). I would bet that 95% of the guests and probably the performers as well at least occasionally did some ellicit drugs...

then again, I think pretty much 85-90% of the population of North America does, too, so what do I know?

hehe..I see my earlier biblical post did nothing to point out the ridiculousness of censorship, as no one seems to have acknowledged what I was oh-so-subtley trying to get at, that ANYTHING can be justified as being censored if you take it too far...

now then, after all that, I happen to beleive that time constraints and a possibly lousy performance/scene was more responsible for snoop ending up being cut than any lobbying...scenes and cameos get cut form movies all the time...it's standard procedure due to time constraints, reworked scripts, etc...there's no reason to think that this is any different....

basically, bottom line is, there's a mountain being made here...and it's made out of spilt milk! (see that's me trying to be funny :D)

[Phillip Chapman]

Please, let's try not to direct all the pro-Snoop hostility against Patty. I've received a lot of e-mails the past few weeks about Snoop's appearance from a variety of people. If you want to talk about why you like it that he's not in the special or why you're disappointed those scenes were cut that's great, however Patty did not make those decisions. Inevitably it was Henson's decision to cut the footage just like they played a part with NBC in choosing the scenes in the first place.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Phillip Chapman
If you want to talk about why you like it that he's not in the special or why you're disappointed those scenes were cut that's great, however Patty did not make those decisions. Inevitably it was Henson's decision to cut the footage just like they played a part with NBC in choosing the scenes in the first place.

Chapman has a point. I was discussing this with Frogboy4 last night, and I told him that I complained about Pat E. to put a face on my discuss, and the fact that she's the only one on board who sent a complaint letter.

Again, yes. It was Henson's decision (if a DVD comes out we may be Lucky enough to have it included as a bonus, or at least an Easter Egg). Though I wouldn't be surprised if the angry letters fueled this judgement.

I appologize (again) for my actions, and I bet these guys appologize for theirs.

[CaptCrouton]

I stand by my statement. Whatever it was that caused them to change their mind, it was their decision. I don't know. Maybe they threw out the Snoop footage because he couldn't say a line without a profanity and they got tired of cutting and pasting all his clips together. Do you have any record of all of what groups contacted Henson? The only one I know who sent a letter was Patty.

So go ahead and express your love for Snoop to the powers that be. You can protest, just like they did for Farscape.

I disagree that Henson did whatever they did without public opinion. You can't do entertainment without public opinion. How do they rate "The Best of the Muppet Show?" Why do they decide what was the best? Public Opinion! How do they determine what Palisades figures to release, or even if they'll release more? Public Opinion! Please reread my previous posts about the nature of entertainment. What part do you disagree with? Henson and Co. would be fools not to pay attention to some form public opinion.

But again, maybe the director of the film looked and said, "This guy's an idiot. I don't have to put up with this. He's not in the film." Look at the post before me and see how much has been blamed on Watchdog Groups. Did it ever occur that some shows and performances are cancelled because they suck?

Somebody please cite the references or evidences that some Watchdog Group forced Henson's hand, please. This thread is so wearying...

[CaptCrouton]

oh, whoops. A couple of posts showed up while i was typing. I'm not referring to those.

[tomahawk]

Originally posted by Phillip Chapman
Please, let's try not to direct all the pro-Snoop hostility against Patty. I've received a lot of e-mails the past few weeks about Snoop's appearance from a variety of people. If you want to talk about why you like it that he's not in the special or why you're disappointed those scenes were cut that's great, however Patty did not make those decisions. Inevitably it was Henson's decision to cut the footage just like they played a part with NBC in choosing the scenes in the first place. no phillip, she may not have single-handedly got snoop off the special, but i dare anyone to find another post she has made in muppet central. be it in action figures, in merchandise or even maybe a hi how are you all doing. i don't believe there is one. she came in here with an agenda. she didn't come in here because she is a muppet fan. maybe if she answered some of all of our questions we would all have a better understanding of where she is coming from. but if she continues to spout out the same exact drivel taken out of the how control what other people are watching book than i for one will not let up. no matter how long and tedious this thread gets. i don't think anyone should back down on what they stand for.
respectfully,james hemstead

[MahnaMahna]

I'd just like to add my 2 cents worth on Muppet cameos in general.

I hate the idea of all the cameos in this upcoming film. I hated the cameos in Muppets From Space. I loved the cameos in The Muppet Movie, The Great Muppet Caper and the Muppets Take Manhattan.

Why?

In Muppets From Space Hulk Hogan played Hulk Hogan. The Dawson's Creek "teens" played the Dawson's Creek teens. How stupid is that?

In the Muppet Movie, Bob Hope played the ice cream man. Milton Berle played the car salesman, Steve Martin was the waiter, etc.....

So, whether it's Snoop or Mr. Rogers, I don't care to see it! However, if they show Snoop as a bus driver or as expensive restaurant customer #3, then I would think it's funny.

Mark

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by tomahawk
i dare anyone to find another post she has made in muppet central. be it in action figures, in merchandise or even maybe a hi how are you all doing. i don't believe there is one. she came in here with an agenda. she didn't come in here because she is a muppet fan. maybe if she answered some of all of our questions we would all have a better understanding of where she is coming from. but if she continues to spout out the same exact drivel taken out of the how control what other people are watching book than i for one will not let up.

In all honesty, I'd have to agree to that! I mean, firstly regaurding Muppets as kids stuff??? NO real muppet fan would say that! Not even if they gave up Muppet Fandom. DIgimon, is a kids show. Barney the Dinosaur is a kids show. For Kids only is a kids show (well, no! I made that one up as a joke). But come on. Who here actually knows that Jim first refused Sesame Street becasue he'd be listed as a children's entertainer. I don't even think she knows how the Muppets work.

She never answers or responds to any of our questions or comments. I think she doesn't even LIKE the Muppets.

[frogboy4]

Could it be that the Rolling Stone article inspired this post in the first place? The caption annoyingly labels the special "Kid's TV." The Muppets need a better PR agent.

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by tomahawk
no phillip, she may not have single-handedly got snoop off the special, but i dare anyone to find another post she has made in muppet central. be it in action figures, in merchandise or even maybe a hi how are you all doing. i don't believe there is one. she came in here with an agenda. she didn't come in here because she is a muppet fan. maybe if she answered some of all of our questions we would all have a better understanding of where she is coming from. but if she continues to spout out the same exact drivel taken out of the how control what other people are watching book than i for one will not let up. no matter how long and tedious this thread gets. i don't think anyone should back down on what they stand for.
respectfully,james hemstead

I've got to agree with that one. I've been in pretty much ever forum with new posts over the past week or so that she's been around, and this forum is the only place I've seen her. She's spouting out all of this opinionated stuff about how Snoop is so bad, and how seeing him in a cameo role on the Muppet special is so bad, especially now that his scenes have now moved to the cutting room floor, regardless that there are fans of his that post here, she won't give reasons to back up her claims, and she never answers any of our questions.

She's spamming us.

-Kim

[Drtooth]

Spam Spam Spam Spam
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Aw, this is no time for Monty Python!

[grail]

to captcrouton - no missles here, my friend...

believe me when i say that you and i are in complete agreement. i have never smoked (anything), nor drank, and will not be starting...for many of the same reasons you stated. plus the fact i think it's disgusting to begin with.

we're also absolutely in agreement in terms of what "sex" is, and again, i personally feel prostitution is degrading and wrong.

however, i also believe that people were given free will, and should be allowed to make their own decisions...provided it does not endanger someone else and/or impinge on THAT person's free will. if someone decided that they want to partake in such activities, why is it my place to MAKE them stop? especially in a day and age where it is physically impossible to NOT know the possible rammifications. i can give them my opinions, and my reasons for them, but i cannot take away that person's ability to make their own decisions.

i hope this explains my previous statements a little better

[tomahawk]

you know what makes all of this worthwhile. is when my daughter and i wake up in the morning or come home from being out, you know what the first thing she asks to see is? the muppets. shes1 and a half and she'll just sit there and go muppets, muppets(in her own little way) ppppp(which is her version of please). i grew up watching the muppets and i am very proud of how i turned out(my wife on the other hand thinks i'm a little overboard on the collecting). i am also very proud of the fact that i can now pass all of the wonder,beauty,magic and art down to my daughter. i am sorry if i have offended anyone with my bluntness. i just feel i need to stand up for what i believe.
your muppet friend, james

[Patty E.]

This controversy, was covered on national television, national newspaper with a minimum of two national radio stations.

Bottom line- Gang behavior, foul talk, and crude conduct is neither impressive or endorsed. Further, Henson Productions has no duty to provide a forum for a CRIPS gang member. The options looked similar to this: 1.) Maintain a wholesome flavor and expand the marketing and viewing audience by encouraging parents to share the Muppets with their children. or,
2. Give parents a reason to turn off the TV.

For those who question: I wrote my initial letter because I have been an adoring fan of the Muppets for many a moon. In closing, it deserves to be mentioned the level of consideration and sensitivity in which the Henson Company has handled this matter. Thank you.

Respectfully,
Patty E.
:cool:

[tomahawk]

see patty, i think an adoring fan would have at least come in and said hi to other adoring muppet fans first.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Patty E.


For those who question: I wrote my initial letter because I have been an adoring fan of the Muppets for many a moon.

As long as you are a fan, we all appologize for our behavior.

We just thought that it was suspicious that you never posted anything besides those two threads.

[CaptCrouton]

Wow,

Is everyone loving one another again? Let's all sing the Rainbow Connection. All together now...

Seriously though. I'm ready to call it quits on this thread. With your permission, I'd like to save debates for another time. I had something pretty important suddenly come up in my life.

Love and Kisses
Pat Robertson
(well, not really)

[beaker]

Wow, a lot of posts in the last 24 hours. See, here's why I could never be a moderator on this type of forum...I couldnt say what Im about to say...

First off...I have to agree with quite a few things Capt Crouton and Patty E have said. It is quite sad that quite a lot of Snoop's gimmick seems to be this total cavalier look at drugs, sex, and other parts of 'the game'. ('the game', of course is the slang term for living a lifestyle expressed in his lyrics)

I am also quite happy with the fact that for the most part, people arguing against Snoop actually have a knowlege of lyrical content...and can verse out what he has said. As opposed to 'well he talks about disrespecting women'.

So looking through capt croton's post especially, I found myself agreeing with quite a bit of what he said.

Sorry for the subject of religion cropping up there. Quite personally the words 'right wing conservative reliogiousness' gives me the heebie jeebies. I think of Pat Robertson, 80's evangelists, and the deep south. But Capt Croton is right...we all espouse to be tolerent...yet find outselves intollerent at the sometimes intollerent.

I think it may be due to the fact, that whenever there is something with the slightest gay-ness connected with it...a cry of 'liberalism homosexual agenda' is uttered. When there is a less than upright cameo on a percieved family program it's 'uh oh, America is going to heck in a hand basket'.

Quite a few of my deepest personal choices of lifestyle rival that
of even the so called conservative christians. I dont believe in smoking or drugs(a child of regan's 80s fer sure), promiscuity, real life violence(which includes fighting wars), etc.

But overall a basic faith we are born with is our true faith...before we are weened on whatever dogma later versed by our parents, school, church, or adoptive figures. It is a faith of love, the kind a newborn gives back to you. It is a prevision of good and love...and a general sense of aspiring to happiness...the thing we all attain. Somewhere along the line man created all these guidelines, red tape, iron fists of rules, etc. But if you have a dog or a cat...or see a quirrel in the park. They arent a Jew, or a Christian, or Hindu...they know of innocence and love. That is a fundamental core or nexus we are all born with...and it is later in life where we are culled into a particulair way of thinking that in a lot of ways poisons that original sense of wonder and love.
It's taken me years to figure this out....and probably a million more years for people to understand. The world is messed up, a lot of it fromt he male species...because they perpetuate a cycle of stupidity and hate they are too unaware to undo. Thats why we have grown up men like Bush Jr initiating wars. Thats why we have prisions filled, and greed in the business world.

If people would just take in what they learned in kindergarten and Sesame Street this would for sure be a better place to live.

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by CaptCrouton
Grail,

All drugs, including legal ones like alchohol and cigarettes destroy lives.
Another interesting study is how prohibition could've worked and the sharp decline in crime as a result. But of course, you can find a study to support whatever you want. Especially if you're a pot head.


C'mon, leave the potheads alone. They're not hurting anyone (including themselves.) Its treated as the "darkest secret within the Muppet fanbase,"- and I'm not implying anything about any one member- but, let's just say you might be offending some very intelligent, upstanding, productive, clever Muppet fans.

But to each his own, I guess.

Gotta go. I'm helping a lady friend move 200 lbs of hog feces out from in front of her front door.

Take care, y'all!

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by Drtooth
Spam Spam Spam Spam
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Aw, this is no time for Monty Python!

:( There's always time for Monty Python! :)

-Kim

[sidcrowe]

I didn't read this entire thread. But, I do agree with this part: Snoop Dogg has his own porno video on the shelves, and I wanna CRY at the stupidity of the Henson company for getting involved with this goof.

Memo to Henson:

Sid Crowe here. I have more brains and talent that your entire staff. Email me an offer over $700,000 per annum and I'll save your legacy.

Hurry up.

signed,

Sid Crowe

[grail]

Originally posted by Cantus' Ghost
C'mon, leave the potheads alone. They're not hurting anyone (including themselves.) Its treated as the "darkest secret within the Muppet fanbase,"- and I'm not implying anything about any one member- but, let's just say you might be offending some very intelligent, upstanding, productive, clever Muppet fans.

But to each his own, I guess.

Gotta go. I'm helping a lady friend move 200 lbs of hog feces out from in front of her front door.

Take care, y'all! is anyone else COMPLETELY confused by this? because i am...

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
There's always time for Monty Python!
ladies and gentlemen...the perfect woman....

[tomahawk]

nope grail, i understand it perfectly.

[grail]

Originally posted by tomahawk
nope grail, i understand it perfectly. can you explain it to me? i don't get it...

[tomahawk]

i believe what was being said was to leave the potheads alone because they are doing no harm and that it is not a well kept secret in muppetland that people do some pot smoking. and than he said he was going to shovel pig poop.

[grail]

Originally posted by tomahawk
i believe what was being said was to leave the potheads alone because they are doing no harm and that it is not a well kept secret in muppetland that people do some pot smoking. and than he said he was going to shovel pig poop. is that it? i thought there was supposed to be some "hidden meaning" or something...thanks!

[tomahawk]

nope i think that was it. hey grail, i appoligized to you earlier about that leary/hicks thing but i don't know if you read it. ireally didn't mean to be that over the top. i'm just a huge bill hicks fan. sorry man.

[grail]

Originally posted by tomahawk
nope i think that was it. hey grail, i appoligized to you earlier about that leary/hicks thing but i don't know if you read it. ireally didn't mean to be that over the top. i'm just a huge bill hicks fan. sorry man. ih...i have a hard time staying angry about ANYTHING for more than about 5 minutes. i did read it, and meant to say so, but i quite honestly forgot. i understand being a fan of the man, he's just plain funny. i've just heard the same thing over and over when it comes to him and other comedians, and not just from you, but from people in my off-internet life too...it just kinda wore on my nerves a little.

oh well, it's over now...time to move on...

[Stryder Wolfe]

Originally posted by Cantus' Ghost
Originally posted by CaptCrouton

C'mon, leave the potheads alone. They're not hurting anyone (including themselves.) Its treated as the "darkest secret within the Muppet fanbase,"- and I'm not implying anything about any one member- but, let's just say you might be offending some very intelligent, upstanding, productive, clever Muppet fans.

But to each his own, I guess.

Gotta go. I'm helping a lady friend move 200 lbs of hog feces out from in front of her front door.

Take care, y'all!

Hey thanks man! :D

pig feces???

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
There's always time for Monty Python!

Well, not when someone sells me a dead parrot!! It's dead! It's ceased to live.

HELLO!!! POLLY PARROT!!!!!!

The parrot is dead...just like this thread. Dwoa ho ho ho!!!

[Patty E.]

Those who affixed labels such as "religious nut," did so, in attempt to dismiss the gravity of the controversy. It did NOT support or advance their argument. It merely discouraged other folks in MC to participate in the discussion.

The true wisdom of a company, is apparent when the executives are able to recognize a bad decision and are unafraid to take corrective action! Congratulations Mr. Rivkin.

Patty E.:cool:

[grail]

Originally posted by Patty E.
Those who affixed labels such as "religious nut," did so, in attempt to dismiss the gravity of the controversy. It did NOT support or advance their argument. It merely discouraged other folks in MC to participate in the discussion.

The true wisdom of a company, is apparent when the executives are able to recognize a bad decision and are unafraid to take corrective action! Congratulations Mr. Rivkin.

Patty E.:cool: um...did you pay attention to a single word that was said? because well...that's just a stupid thing to say.

[tomahawk]

see patty, there wasn't a controversy. you decided that in everyones best interest that a certain short cameo should not be put in the muppet christmas movie. your argument was that in the 30 to 60 second piece(i'm guessing here) that kids all over the country were going to start turning to gangs, renting porno and shooting up the neiborhood. since you could not answer my question on your definition of degrading is, i'll let you know what my definition is. any single person or group that thinks they know what is best for other individuals or thier childeren or thier aunts, uncles, cousins, grandmas etc. etc. etc. that is degrading to me. i don't need people to think for me or tell me what is right or wrong for me and my family to watch. if you have a problem with your kids(if you have any) thats your problem. not hensons, not snoops, not n.b.c. and certainly not anyones here on muppet central.

[Thog]

I'm so glad these people are here to protect my chlidren, becasue I know I can't do it myself. I just don't seem to have the time. I'm too busy smoking pot and watching porn.

http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c2sc25gb4021-4743,00.html

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=495&ncid=762&e=6&u=/ap/20021003/ap_en_mu/snoop_dogg

[tomahawk]

people need to get a hobby......... maybe taking up smoking pot and watching more porn will help them out.

[Skeeter Muppet]

um...did you pay attention to a single word that was said? because well...that's just a stupid thing to say.

*snorts* In two words....probably not.

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
There's always time for Monty Python!

ladies and gentlemen...the perfect woman....


Aw, grail...now you made me all embarrassed and stuff!
;)


-Kim

[Thog]

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
*snorts*....

I'm afraid to ask but....what are you snorting?
:D

[beaker]

1) While I find any cameo by a hasbeen rapper like Snoop quite an embarassing snafu on the part of the JHC, I feel that various outspoke groups who wanted Snoop edited out have inadvertently and most likely gotten cut quite a few potentially
great and golden Muppet moments.

2) DO NOT be fooled...these outspoken groups are by no means fans of the Muppets...what they want to do is to make a big stink over what they feel is moral and just. Trust me, if JHC truly had a problem with a guest they wouldnt have he or she come on.
Thes eoutspoken critics could give a hoot, much less know or care who the electric mayhem are or any of the characters in the film.

3) Sorry for my existential rant on religion and faith. I know this is the deepest of personal subjects for people all over, such is why I carefully word things to be general and factual. Were all on here for one reason anyways(besides Emmy's online nano-muffins)

4) potheads, potheads, rolly polly potheads. While I have never even smoked a ciggarette in my life...I can understand that smoking pot isnt the worst durg one can do. Let's just say I wouldnt believe for a second during the classic muppeteer days things werent exactly 100% straight edge. While I am vehemntly opposed to drugs(hey, Im a product of late 80's propaganda!)
I will say that the use of pot should be ignored if its by otherwise responsible or artistic or more important people who need it for pain relief purposes. I am however extremely against ecstacy and other posion youth around the world kill themselves on.

5) Monty Python...Not a fan of British humour by any stretch of the imagination...but when it comes to British music that's a different story! (Oh how Ive been weened on New York Metropolitain situation comedy)

[frogboy4]

Couldn't really say it better myself. Those who label The Muppet Show characters as "kid's entertainment" are not true fans of the show or its characters in my eyes. Not to say they don't enjoy them, of course. But it's not like they'd set their Tivo to tape the special.

[sidcrowe]

Sure, a heckuva lot of the guests that have been involved with the Muppets over the years have been less than perfect, but gangs murder people for no good reason at all. From what I've learned here by finally reading it all, Snoop was a member of the Crips. I'm not aware of him making a strong effort to denounce gangs as evil stupidity. He dresses like a gangster. He dresses like a pimp. He's involved with real porn.

If he just wrote ABOUT gang stuff and dressed like one as a way of commenting on that portion of society, then maybe I wouldn't care. But he was REALLY a member of a murderous organization, which means he's trading on an image of something despicable and evil that he was REALLY a part of.

So, to he (ll) with him.

There's a difference between dressing up like Hitler for a joke, like Mel Brooks did, and actually being a Nazi.

Moreover, there's the porn industry connection.

Who can say who is 100% correct?

I'm going with my gut, and I don't think Jim Henson would want a porno hound involved with his projects.

[grail]

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
*snorts* In two words....probably not.
i was willing to defend her right to her opinion...until that post...now i just don't care. she also sent me some email that i honestly couldn't make sense of. i LIKE getting email...makes me feel important, but jeez...complete a thought...rant over.


Aw, grail...now you made me all embarrassed and stuff! yes, well...how would YOU describe someone who likes: Muppets, Monty Python, They Might Be Giants, Digimon, etc...usually, it's just the most hard-core of the geeks, with nary a female in the bunch (with the exception of Muppets, maybe). :p

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by Patty E.

Those who affixed labels such as "religious nut," did so, in attempt to dismiss the gravity of the controversy.

Patty E.:cool:



If this is a controversy- as it is to that urban music scholar, Bill O'Reilly- then, may I suggest getting some REAL problems to worry about....

P.S. No bad blood with you, Patty, or anyone else.

[Patty E.]

C.Ghost-

What I make my business should be of no concern to you.

Patty E.

[petrieboy]

I am a Christian, so this response is targeted to other Christians, in case they are some of those who are upset over Snoop and the Muppets.
Jesus befriended prostitutes, thieves, and all sorts of people who (some literally in flesh and bone) were "falling apart." We were created in God's likeness, and a major goal in our lives is supposed to be to live as closely as possible to the same principles that Jesus upheld.
When I first posted on this subject, I mentioned that I had no problem with Snoop appearing on a Muppets show. In fact, I welcomed it. I had a problem with the Muppets appearing in the film "An American Werewolf in London" because the film involved an extended sequence inside a porno theater and also a television cameo by Kermit and Miss Piggy, who also appeared in the credits. Why did I mind this? Because the Muppets were lending themselves and their name to a very questionable project. But all that would be happening with Snoop on board is that *he* would be lending his name to a Muppet's project, which by essence is almost always good natured and family oriented. I have a feeling that, much more than any child being led astray by his presence, there is a chance that Snoop would be uplifted by the show, and working with the Muppets.
We so often outcast everyone we believe to be "wicked" before giving them a chance to redeem themselves or to get to know them, and how they got to where they are. For everything Snoop may have done wrong, he did something right by agreeing to a Muppets Christmas Special. Jesus never lent his heart to a sin, but he surely allowed any sinner to lend his heart to Jesus. And so, let the Muppets follow suit.

[towels]

Originally posted by Patty E.
C.Ghost-

What I make my business should be of no concern to you.

Patty E.

When your business is deciding what other people can and can not watch, it is a concern. You're not my mom so keep your hands off my TV.

[frogboy4]

I always felt that Snoop was a poor choice to begin with for several reasons. Some have been mentioned here. Mainly because he's not that popular and kind of an empty shell of an entertainer. No real charisma to him. Puffy, P. Ditty or whatever the heck his name is these days - would have been a better choice. He's had one controversy (that he was cleared of) and his music is rather benign. He's also still popular in the R&B/Rap community. His sense of humor can be seen in some of his videos and he is a much better fit with the Muppets. Not my favorite guy, but it just makes sense.

I still think it was a bad idea to cut the footage out after it was shot. Maybe they could have edited it down to make his part smaller, but to cut him out entirely is suspicious. But that's why they make the big bucks and we do not. I trust they know what they are doing and hope the footage will be released on a DVD or something.

[Luke]

I was actually very suprised they didn't get Sisqo - not that i think he is the bee's knee's but he has some kind of production or development deal with NBC does he not ? I thought that their guest booking was being done on the assumption that they were to get as many NBC related people in there as possible. Maybe there's something i don't know about Snoop Dog and his NBC connections cos it's wierd. Yes, if there had to be a rapper Puff Diddy as Jamie said would probably be the best one to have gotten if it really came down to it. All rappers are involved in controversy though - otherwise there would be nothing for the publicists to work with and they wouldn't get record deals.

Again i want to stress - do not worry so much about this 30 minute cut. I do this biz for a living folks and it is so not the done thing to have a press release for making a cut in the movie - in normal everyday media life it doesn't make sense because you would be creating negative publicity around yourself. When they shoot a two hour movie they end up with much more footage and there are so often scenes cut out that never make it in. The press release doesn't give an altered runtime for the movie which makes me think the cuts they are talking about are ones that would happen anyway as a matter of due course in the edit room. I really think the announcement of cuts is just an excuse made up between the Henson press office and Snoop's press people to get him out of the project with as little fuss as possible - it just makes no sense to me otherwise. It's not like Snoop would have had a big part anyway so unless NBC have specifically asked for a shorter duration for scheduling i think it's just a press thing.

[tomahawk]

Originally posted by Patty E.
C.Ghost-

What I make my business should be of no concern to you.

Patty E. you know, i was really leaning towards other peoples thoughts of letting this thread die. letting it sink like the titanic, dissapear, disintegrate. moving on felt like a good idea. but than at work the other night i got to thinking, its not just patty who is against people wanting to see things that they as human beings have every right to see, its other groups that are now taking the responsibility of changing the henson company mind and forcing censorship on them by threatening boycotts. so i thought about a few things that may not have been brought up before that may help patty and all of the other think for everyone else groups out there.

1.REMOTE CONTROLS-o.k. find your t.v. remote. there should be a red button(it may be other colors , but it is usually the brightest). point the remote at your t.v. push the button. notice that the t.v. goes on or off. to me this usually comes in handy when survivor is on. now look around on the rest of the remote, you'll see to arrows going up or down. these change the channel when something you dislike is on. this also comes in handy for me when survivor is on.

2.SNOOP/MUPPETS/PORN
there were some comments made concerning kids and if they were to watch the chistmas special, see snoop and connect it with his porn videos etc. now i don't know how everyone raises thier kids but the only way my daughter would connect snoop with the muppet special and his porno is if SHE SEES THE PORNO. otherwise its some guy sitting on some steps with the electric mayhem. remember the frog is a great deal more interesting to look at, and who notices what the bearded man is doing. if your kids are able to connect snoop to his pornos than i believe there is another problem at hand.

3.FREEDOM?
if any of these people, groups,churches, militias, cults, satanists, atheists, patriots, pot smokers, drinkers, clean living people, gangsters, porn actors and actresses etc. etc. are behind the president on his "crusade" against the iraqi threat to our freedom, are way of life and our safety........................well i think that speaks for itself.

[ZootandDingo]

Originally posted by Patty E.
C.Ghost-
What I make my business should be of no concern to you.

Then why bother posting it all to strangers on a public forum? There was nothing that you said that you couldn't have just written in a private letter to Mr. Rivkin. In fact, if I'm not mistaken you joined the forum just for posting your little rant.

If you want to present an opinion, then you should be willing to hear the reaction to that. If the reaction is "Get a life," then oh well.

Let's face it, you've made it everyone's concern on here. If you didn't want to get a group reaction, then there was nothing stopping you from just writing to Mr. Rivkin (if you did at all, since I personally was never under the impression that he checks this forum).

I'm sorry. You can go ahead and have whatever thoughts and opinions you want. But you can't come onto a message board and post it, then not answer people who ask you to elaborate on certain points, and then get huffy if someone blows you off as irrational. That's almost hypocritical of you.

You won. Get over it. If you need to gloat, write to Rivkin.

[grail]

Originally posted by ZootandDingo
Then why bother posting it all to strangers on a public forum? There was nothing that you said that you couldn't have just written in a private letter to Mr. Rivkin. In fact, if I'm not mistaken you joined the forum just for posting your little rant.

If you want to present an opinion, then you should be willing to hear the reaction to that. If the reaction is "Get a life," then oh well.

Let's face it, you've made it everyone's concern on here. If you didn't want to get a group reaction, then there was nothing stopping you from just writing to Mr. Rivkin (if you did at all, since I personally was never under the impression that he checks this forum).

I'm sorry. You can go ahead and have whatever thoughts and opinions you want. But you can't come onto a message board and post it, then not answer people who ask you to elaborate on certain points, and then get huffy if someone blows you off as irrational. That's almost hypocritical of you.

You won. Get over it. If you need to gloat, write to Rivkin.

man..._I_ wanted to say that...but i'm not supposed to be surfing the internet at work, so i couldn't respond earlier. oh well...

[Zack the Dog]

1. Robin Williams-a known coke abuser, and crass comic (see live at the met)
2. Ozzy Osborne
3. Alice Cooper
4. Mel Brooks - comedy below the belt
5. Debby Harry
6. Jimmy Buffet- songs about drunkeness
7. Elton John
8. John Cleese-Monty Python was not kids stuff
9. Steve Martin
10. The cast of Saturday Night Live
11. Dudley Moore
12. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones
13. Hulk Hogan
14. Richard Prior
15. Jon Stewart-an admitted dope smoker
16. Whoopie Goldberg
17. Tim Curry- a transvestite in Rocky Horror...for shame
18. Liza Minneli
19. Coolio
20. Tony Bennet- also had a coke problem and possible mafia ties
21. Robert Downey Junior

dose anyone see Dom Deluse on this list?!?! NO! Dom Deluse should be in this christmas specail, he's a great chef, dose many wonderful cartoon character voices, and he's halarius! i love Dom! he's great!

what people aren't understanding is that snoop openly dose this suff, like you can look at his face and that's what you will think of, when you look at Whoopie Goldberg that's not what you think of
let's face it guys, muppets aren't just for adults, there are kids too and no matter what anyone thinks, it's always going to be this way, no i'm not a fan at all of snoop,but i would have like to seem him do something like this, i feel bad for him, but what was done had to be done

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by Patty E.
C.Ghost-

What I make my business should be of no concern to you.

Patty E.



This comment wasn't even directed towards you. It was towards Bill O'Reilly. He's the one who chose to provide his Godawful, aimless commetary on this brief cameo thing before a nat'l audience, thus, ignoring the REAL issues. All you did was post a couple of messages on an Internet msg bd. I'm saying that he is grossly irresponsible for making this an issue when there is so much suffering- caused mostly by greed- in the world. You have to admit that Snoop Dogg's cameo in this movie is ultimately unimportant. Just admit it!

This was not an attack on you. I only quoted you to elaborate my own opinion.

But enough about that. Has anyone tried those new 'milk n' cereal' bars? Eccch! Nasty! I dunno...

[frogboy4]

I agree with you about Bill O'Riley. I actually enjoy Fox News as long as it's mixed with some MSNBC and CNN. But Bill is less relevant than Howard Stern.

[Cantus' Ghost]

oreilly@foxnews.com

That's his email address. Let's give that pigheaded elitist a little taste of Hel- uh, I mean, Hades...

:D

[Patty E.]

How Henson Productions would overlook the surplus of other black performers, artists and achievers in favor of Dogg is beyond comprehension. The broadcast would have reinforced popular culture's sterotype of black males as foul mouthed, gangbanging, dope dealing homeboys.

Patty E.
:cool:

[frogboy4]

Apparently Snoop has been making the rounds in other forms of Children's entertainment. This information has been published in several articles and spoken about on television. Snoop was likely shopped around rather than pursued by Henson. I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. More attention has been brought to Snoop by naysayers than any appearance would have.

[beaker]

>>>otherwise its some guy sitting on some steps with the electric mayhem.<<<

And I think that is the crux of the whole matter. To think that kids watching this will see Snoop and think 'oh man, I need to join a gang and sing songs about slingin' dope and ho's' is a joke.
But a very small vocal minoity will have you believe otherwise.

However, reading through some of Patty E's posts she does bring up some very good points.

>>>How Henson Productions would overlook the surplus of other black performers, artists and achievers in favor of Dogg is beyond comprehension. The broadcast would have reinforced popular culture's sterotype of black males as foul mouthed, gangbanging, dope dealing homeboys.<<<

I agree fully. These media moguls might as well be wearing colonel sanders colonial slave owner garb, ribbon ties and a whip...as they have literally formed in unfortunate quantities this tragic 'new millennium' minstrel show with the protrayal of black youth in MTV, BET, etc. Spike Lee's "Bamboozled" makes this argument.

Rap used to be innocent. Public Enemy, Run DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J., etc... then came along this west coast gang banging(ie: true affiliations with gangs and drugs) thing in the early 90's that really put a negative stain on America's psyche when it came to stereotypes.

It should be an embarassment for Puff Daddy, MTV higher ups, etc to peddle this blacksploitation wrapped as kid friendly recruitment. Just th eidea of negative streotype reinforcement is what I agree with on Patty E's comment...however when it comes to this special, I think its more along the lines of another hasbeen cameo then anything to be up in arms about.

But to Patty, I agree...I can think of 3 dozen more suitable rappers(cisqo, busta rhymes, jurassic 5, ll cool j, etc) than this washed out Snoop Dogg.

[Patty E.]

To Frogboy:
Do you mean "Dogg" is appearing on other children's programs?

[frogboy4]

Yes, that is the word. Music and other children's projects. You may search for the details on your own. I don't feel right facilitating some sort of letter writing campaign that I don't necessarily agree with.

[Patty E.]

I think folks agree, the honor would be tremendous to guest on any Muppet program. I am dumfounded that the evaluation/research progress for a guest was not executed more thoughtfully.

B.B. King and Smokey Robinson, are a few ringers, that are well respected in the community.

Patty E.
:cool:

[frogboy4]

Both good performers, but I think NBC and Henson were trying to get someone current. Why do I get the feeling that if it were up to you, a perfectly good Weezer music video would never have been made? I really think all this petition writing and censorship efforts distasteful. If it were some sort of petition to bring back Fraggle Rock or to have Muppet projects released in widescreen formats I would sign up. But policing what other viewers can watch just seems lame to me. Go for it, it's a free country. I feel that better efforts can be made in supporting things you do like than tearing down what you don't. It's all just ridiculous in my eyes. Just how I see it. I thought I was out of this thread but it keeps pulling me back in.

[Patty E.]

Frog... I find it most surprising that anyone would find the Muppets and a person connected with pornography and gangbanging a suitable mix for the program. Further, I am not involved in "censorship" or "petition writing'" those are your assumptions and your words.

[Luke]

Originally posted by frogboy4
But policing what other viewers can watch just seems lame to me.

As someone in broadcasting, i agree for the most part but obviously there are certain situations that need to be policed and the reasons we have guidelines. For instance a friend of mine was a producer on a betting show where they asked viewers to bet on how many soccer goals a guy with one leg could score against a guy with no arms, and they paid actual disabled people to act out the skit in a comedy environment. Just watching it made me sick, not because the people were disabled, or that that they were playing soccer but because it was clear the producers were making light of their disabilities and hoping viewers would laugh at them.

Sometimes things are pulled far too easily though and just to avoid adverse publicity or bad reviews. Not enough accountability goes on in TV and it's all down to media strategies and who will say what or think what - it all usually comes down to some big gamble. It's also always the suits that decide and not the creative people involved in the art - and theres a lot of people who cannot understand art or creativity in TV.

[frogboy4]

You reported your writing a letter supporting censorship (cutting Snoop out) of the Muppet special. That was not meant to be argumentative.

It seems that this is more about an agenda than sharing the love of Muppets with other forum members. I hope I am wrong about that. We are all die-hard Muppet supporters here and have an extensive knowledge of the history and program. Maybe you do too, but how the heck would we know that? You haven't really allowed us that privilege.

Instead, you keep repeating the same statements and haven't responded to several very good points that people have made in this thread. This forum is about sharing and communication. It is certainly your right to speak your mind, but being mindful of others is the way to gain friends.

I do not appreciate your rude "Frog...” tone. I see that you have been attacked by others and may be in defense mode, but you have to expect opposition to such loaded and heavy-handed statements.

I really shouldn't have gotten into this in the first place. I just make things pretty around here. LOL! I enjoy a healthy debate, but this clearly seems like a one-person crusade. I look forward to your sharing something about the Muppets in another thread. We highly value new members here.

[sidcrowe]

This isn't out to anybody specific–it's just a general comment. I like y'all too much to slight anyone. I'd rather keep things to myself than mix it up with everybody.

I hate censorship, but...

Snoop was involved–for real–with a murderous organization.

Until he states that his gang life was the biggest mistake he's ever made, and that they are scum, and he stops trading (making money) from the gangsta mystique, then he has no place anywhere.

Of all places, he has no place whatsoever in any project bearing the signature of Jim Henson.

We're all enjoying a debate here. No one, including myself, can ever be 100% right.

Nevertheless, we share our opinions with one another, and respond to each other in kind as best we can.

We do not kill one another.

[Patty E.]

Sid,
I agree, some form of disclosure from the cockroach regarding his gangbanging, drug dealing, pimpin' ways are over. The company does not need to contaminate its name or offend its loyal audience by providing a venue for that nonsense.

Patty E.
:cool:

[sidcrowe]

The act of murder transcends this debate.

Good people jostle one another with words–not bullets.

Those involved with the business of killing their fellows should never be entertained or tolerated by those who do not. While I do not believe in everlasting punishment, I DO believe in eternal vigilance against those who would soil and ruin the good things of the world.

Use your imaginations, people.

Imagine walking into a crack-infested gang house a few years ago with Snoop and his ilk inside. Imagine walking in there holding a Kermit doll and wearing a Muppet t-shirt and politely asking them to turn down the music and stop dealing drugs in your neighbourhood.

You'd get your head blown off.

Then your assailants would get high, laugh at what they did, forget all about you, and move on.

That's the face of evil. That's reality.

Until Snoop fully renounces the bloodthirsty cult of slime he once participated in, he has no business or moral entitlement to be a part of any project with the Henson company.

I'm not a member of any organized religion, but I know evil when it crosses my path, and I hope this thread gets read by Henson employees again and again, so that they may take at least a minute in the future to consider who they allow to be included in their projects.

For an interesting take on what decent people think of gangs, check out the movie Falling Down. There's a scene where Michael Douglas is confronted by a gang member, and he yells at him about the sickening banalities of a gang's "turf," and their willingness to kill for no reason at all.

I hope Patty did reach a Henson employee from this board, and got the scene cut.

To Hades with Snoop.

[AruggeRadio]

Sense this post is starting to devolve into name calling i thought i would add my 2 cents.

Just for the record, Snoop Dog has never been convinced in a United States court for Murder. He was brought up on charges in 1994 but was found innocent by a jury of his pears. So before you all call him a murder or part of a murderous organization I thought I would clear it up that he has never been convinced of the crime of murder. So Snoop himself is not a killer.

Once again if you would take time to listen to the Lyrics of his songs you would realize that he is very anti this type of behavior and wants to sway youth from taking the same path that he did.

CW

[AruggeRadio]

I also thought that I would bring the opportunity to some of you who have never actually listened to a snoop song to at least see his poetry. Here is the lyrics to one of Snoop Dogs earliest and in my opinion one of his most brilliant songs called Murder Was the Case [DeathAfterVisualizingEternity]. The lyrics contain strong language so those who are squeamish don’t venture. I encourage Patty E thought to read these and tell me if Snoop Dog is glorifying gang banging.

http://www.poplyrics.net/waiguo/snoopdog/008.htm

[Patty E.]

There is no doubt in my mind DOGG's appearance is attempt to rehabilitate his pathetic vile image. I object to this being done on the back of Henson Productions. The association is cosmetic and has no value to the Muppets.

Further, who would want to do business with "Rap Culture?" By selecting "SNOOP" for an infomercial/cameo appearance, you risk offending other rival rappers. This culture has a history of becoming violent, when snubbed.

Patty E.
:cool:

[Warrick]

Originally posted by Patty E.

Further, who would want to do business with "Rap Culture?"


Me ?

Lots of other people, Oh and Henson ?

Didnt Coolio star on Muppets Tonight?


See ya

[sidcrowe]

AruggeRadio

"So before you all call him a murder or part of a murderous organization I thought I would clear it up that he has never been convinced of the crime of murder."

I've only posted about this 5 times or so, and never have I called Snoop a murderer.

But "part of a murderous organization?"

Yes, I stand by that 100%.

What the heck do you think the Bloods and Crips are––the Boy Scouts?

They're just a bunch of cowardly, backward, violent dirtbags who'd rather war with themselves and kill non-members for kicks than do anything else.

Are you high on something right now? :confused:

[Skeeter Muppet]

Are you high on something right now?

I'm sorry, but are you insinutating that he has to be high or drugged up on something to be defending Snoop? Methinks you've crossed the line into stereotyping territory, Sid.

-Kim

[sidcrowe]

Skeeter

OK, maybe you're right :rolleyes:

The Bloods and Crips are fine people.

If you have any kids, be sure and leave them with the gang members to take care of them for a few days.

If you know any of these magical people, hang around them and talk Muppets with them. If there's one thing a Crip or a Blood loves, it's not guns and turf wars, it's puppets and stories about them.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Sorry about the "high" comment :rolleyes:

[sidcrowe]

Skeeter

Whooops, I take it back :p

You DO have to be high on drugs to see the Crips as anything BUT a murderous organization.

Of course, I may be wrong. Like I said, none of us is 100% correct.

Tell me about this great fellowship of esteemed gentlemen, the Crips.

I'm waiting :rolleyes:

What, nothing to say about the Crips?

I'm falling asleep here :o

[Patty E.]

Originally posted by AruggeRadio
"... some of you who have never actually listened to a snoop song to at least see his poetry. "


To: AruggeRadio
Dogg's work- poetry? How could anyone be enamored by his filth. It aims to vulgarize young minds. It is "peddling filth for profit."

http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/snoopdog/lastmeal/snp_dogg.snp.txt

Patty E.
:cool:

[beaker]

You wanna know what the 'Bloods and Crips' are?

They are an embarassing fashion faux paus of the mid to late 80's that somehow survived past that. Obviously people who post stuff or generalizations however true, dont know their facts.

This particulair gang or gans is comprised of inmates, and generally young black youth who are 3rd generation 3rd world poor. Meaning, it is a cycle of violence, fear, and peer pressue that becons such membership...not 'flashy MTV videos' as a recruitment tool.

People point and scowl at the inner city urban decay and degrdation of selected black youth...yet overlook the root or origins, or see the disproportinate amount of jailed youth from these sectors.

Back int he 10's, 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's quite a few blacks were forced to live in squallor and on the poor side of the tracks. Its a fact. Oppurtunities were destroyed, and a cycle began several generatiosn ago. Flash forward to the 60's civil rights movement, and a lot of this forced to live in a ghetto aparteid stuff was lifted(for the most part) Yet by the late 80's(and even now) this lifestyle of desperateness continues. Why you ask?

Because cycles are hard to break, and it takes brave souls to rise up out of such living, whether it be in Oakland, Caprini Green, Harlem, or Houston.

It's kind of like saying 'Man, a lot of those Native Americans are just building casinos, drinking themselves to death, and living off welfare'. Well, when virtually your entire race is ethnically cleansed by the United States government, then the remaining few are given a few morsels of grain fields to plop down...tell me there woouldnt be lingering problems.

All Im saying is this argument of 'lifestyle' is systematic and has a reasoning behind it. Anyone who has visited a ghetto or like neighborhood can see this desperate and horrific situation at its nexus.

That said I think it is Patty E's agenda to simply argue about whats 'apporpriate' for a presumed children's show.
Notice she never once actually mentions a love or even interest in the Muppets...just a 'concern' of role models.

And Patty, to answer your question you emailed me...I referenced the great Muppet character Sam the Eagle in the same sentence as you, because he is a satire of the type of well meaningful but poorly executed reasoning. He is a parody of alarm pushing
cansorship in America over the years.

[Patty E.]

Shows typically fall into a catagory. Which catagory do you think the Company selects, as appropriate for their material?

 TV-Y, material suitable for children of all ages. Show contains little or no violence, strong language or sexual content.

 TV-Y7, material suitable for children 7 and older.

 TV-G, material suitable for all audiences.

 TV-PG, parental guidance is suggested. Program may contain infrequent coarse language, limited violence, some suggestive sexual dialogue and situations.

 TV-14, material may be inappropriate for children under 14. Program may contain sophisticated themes, strong language and sexual content.

 TV-M, for mature audiences only. Program may contain profane language, graphic violence and explicit sexual content.

Patty E.
:cool:

[beaker]

I think I figured it out...Patty E works for some independent television watchdog group with a peculair agenda for targetting puppet shows!

I found her site, it's www.puppetwatch.org

[Patty E.]

Beaker, you have a terrific imagination, although you are wrong.

Patty
:cool:

[grail]

even though i think Cory's a cool guy, we've had...differences in the past. so i am THRILLED to be able to say that on this point, we are absolutely, positively, 100% on the same page. it IS largly environment that causes these problems. and i want to thank AruggeRadio for posting those lyrics, i'm not a fan of rap, i never have been...but there is (mostly) a good point hidden among the cursing.

btw...Patty, if one wants to change their image, where would YOU suggest he does so, if not with the Muppets. or are you the same type of person who believes that you have to have experience for a starting level position. everyone has to start somewhere. the Muppets are high profile, and Henson has always been open-minded and tolerant, and willing to give people second, third, fourth, and so on chances...can you think of a BETTER place for someone to try and turn their image around?

oh, and sid. stop bashing Skeeter. the "are you high" comment was rude and out of line, and she called you on it. there was no good reason for that comment in the first place, and i personally feel that you owe AruggeRadio an apology for making a serious, and very insulting accusation. then you owe Skeeter one for bashing her when she pointed out the insult for what it was. that was just ridiculous, and there's no excuse for it.

oh, and Cory...funeeee

[Zack the Dog]

What is all this stuff? oh well, i don't care...i don't even know what is means...



Zack) Rowlf the, good greef the comideans a bear! Dog.

[Patty E.]

If Henson was planning to produce a ( M-Mature rating) Christmas Special, then having a cameo appearance by a Rapper would not be an issue. It's just a bit unclear what direction they are planning on taking the company.

Patty
:cool:

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by Patty E.
To: AruggeRadio
Dogg's work- poetry? How could anyone be enamored by his filth. It aims to vulgarize young minds. It is "peddling filth for profit."

http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/snoopdog/lastmeal/snp_dogg.snp.txt

Patty E.
*****************************

The lyrics in the link come off as more childish than poisonous. Childishness isn't necessarily symptomatic of deviants, degenrates, etc. The pot innuendo I don't mind because I have nothing against 'the Devil's vile weed.' The sexual content is no different from 'locker room banter.' The swears don't bother me because I live in a profane (yet gratifying) environment. The 'violent' innuendo is indicative of inner-city life and seems to be more honest than anything else. This is how life is for many in the inner-city.

But let's not discount the issue of race. Nobody says anything when the Dixie Chicks sang about murder ('Goodbye, Earl') or when Garth Brooks- in typical, gimmicky, derivative fashion, no less- sang about drinking ('Friends in Low Places,' 'Two Pina Coladas'). White people are so cute when they sing about murder or illicit substances. Aren't they?

People take lyrics too literally, as was the case with Wal-Mart's interpretation of Nirvana's brilliant song, "Rape Me."

Creepy, wealthy, white politicians and their wives are often the first to blast musicians for their lyrics. Too bad they're outsiders. They can only judge the lyrics from their own perspectives and ommit the context the lyrics were put in, any possible subtext, symbolism, etc. Too, too bad...

If peolpe want to blast the artists for their lyrics, they had better have their facts straight, instead of using the assumed consequences of letting an artist say what he wants as an argument.

That is all. Later!

[grail]

well said!

[beaker]

I think it is healthy as mature people to be able to discuss matters of race, appropriateness, etc without a sense of being 'Un PC'

>>>White people are so cute when they sing about murder or illicit substances. Aren't they?<<<

Well, it is alarming how well recepted in suburban communities(not by parents, but by kids) Eminem is. A new film of his called '8 mile' illustrates though, there are real division lines both in actuality and socially.

>>>Creepy, wealthy, white politicians and their wives are often the first to blast musicians for their lyrics. Too bad they're outsiders.
If peolpe want to blast the artists for their lyrics, they had better have their facts straight, instead of using the assumed consequences of letting an artist say what he wants as an argument.<<<

Exactly. First off, there is a fine line we are talking about. An artist breaking free of a harsh life and upbringing by making it as a rap artist? Or just simply thugs glorifying a vile lifestyle in lyrics? I think its not as black and white as that.

Sure we all wish things were rosy, and everybody sang positive lyrics...but somethims extrapolation, and purging of feelings is a good form of medicine be it in a painting or song.

Yet I do feel there is a responsibility, not by the rappers themselves, but by media outlets like MTV, BET, etc.

As long as the more controversial stuff is put into the later at night, parental warning block theres no need to censor.

Whats appropriate for one age may not be for another. I never believed 'what may be appropriate for one family may not be for another' as quite a few families in this country have their head in the sand, making everything 'inapporpriate' to their kids.

I think a sense of balance is needed in all things, when they are considered. My opinion on the Snoop thing? I think it was just a lame cameo to begin with, not befitting of the Muppets in the first place. Though if the scenes cut effected anything, or had great chemistry, Im sure we'll all be miffed!

[danielromens]

why is it that patty and her follower seem to be oblivious to the fact that the muppet show was a device for henson and his crew of puppeteers to do a more mature and intelligent show. the reason many of the original guests were on the show was to appeal to adults. the show was excessable to everyone. even sesame street started out as a more edgy show, incorporating situations and people familiar with underprivilaged innercity children. Jesse Jackson was a speaker who sometimes outraged caucasian middle and southern americans yet he was on sesame street. Henson had many friends in the artworld. Andy Warhol a known drug user and experimenter in the counter culture was a fan and friend. David Bowie another edgy artist and musician. In a lot of ways Henson was counterculture.

yet, in their attempt to revive the muppets show and it's characters to another more mature and adult audience in a made for tvmovie in a more mature primetime timeslot , the henson company is being shut out by their own misunderstanding middle american adult fans because they think that the characters should be made to pander to kids. I imagine these are the same parents who are angered by mature reference in shrek, monsters inc. and other incinuting fare. lighten up.

[frogboy4]

I remember a time when some people claimed that Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osbourne were the devil in carnate, but they did fantastic non-offensive work with the Muppets. I'm sure there was a letter campaing against Alice Cooper's Muppet Show apperance twenty-five years ago.

[Patty E.]

Henson Productions has the freedom to create whatever.

What is of material concern to the public is what type of production are they preparing to create, now. The Audience has reason to be confused. An apparent, "family-style program" was preparing to incorporate a very sleazy performer/producer. An individual who actively markets porno and pimpin' videos.

Just level with the audience.

Patty E.
:cool:

[sidcrowe]

Grail...first to you

Please don't invoke the tired ploy of citing what I've said and asking me to apologise to others, in an effort to paint me as a reckless ogre. Longtime forum members have been through it all before; it isn't fooling anyone.

Cripes, I didn't say anything that bad, anyway :rolleyes:

As for the rest of it, I was expecting it: it's all poor Snoop's environment.

He's in his thirties, now–not nineties. We're not talking about the 1800s here.

I'm poor myself. I've lived on welfare before. I've got a ton of ideas for web movies but I just can't put together enough money for the equipment I need.

So I SUFFER. I don't STEAL :mad:

Furthermore, I can forgive the destruction and/or theft of material things, but I've got no patience for those who commit crimes of violence, up to and including murder.

If Snoop was writing some foul-mouthed things about the way he grew up, I could deal with that, but he was a real, genuine...FOR REAL gang member.

His filthy, stinking comrades KILL PEOPLE FOR THE HELLL OF IT!

I tried to wrestle with what others have to say, and if Snoop would renounce what he did and if he hadn't already been in the porno, then I could accept him on the special.

But he has NOT renounced his Crips participation, and he continues to enjoy, exploit, and trade off the gangsta mystique. That is wrong, and I haven't encountered anyone yet who even has the guts to address the reality of what the Crips and Bloods are all about.

What shall we tolerate next?

An impoverished, European neo-Nazi skinhead who likes to beat the daylights out of homosexuals and Jews FOR NO REASON? But then he comes up with some rhymes and all is forgiven? Welcome to the Muppets, skinhead?

COME ON! Gimme a break :mad:

I'm all for anyone's freedom of expression, no matter what they have to say, but if you are a member of an organization that murders people, you're kinda carrying out an ultimate censorship on them by KILLING THEM, correct?

If you join a gang of murderers, then it's GAME OVER.

Do what you like, but you are NOT welcome to participate in the good things of the world.

Go make another porno if you want, but stay the HELLL away from Jim Henson.

Your star power running dry, Snoop? Wanna expand the ol' market share? Not with Henson, NOT EVER!

Patty probably did play a part in the decision. We all know that Henson employees frequent this website. Muppet Central has the highest concentration of hardcore Muppet fans in the world. I only wish I could've posted before the decision, so I could take some credit too, but I can't. But I will do my bit to ensure Snoop never has a dAm-N thing to do with the Muppets again.

Some of the last part of this post was directed at Snoop himself (as if he'd ever come here).

I don't understand why the reality of a gang of murderers isn't sinking in around here.

What would Jim do?

"Hey Jim, we want a rapper in the next special. Here's one shopping himself for cheap, but, ummm..."

"Umm, what? What are you trying not to say?"

"He was in with the Crips. A bunch of killers. And he made a porno video last year."

"Hmmm. I see. Keep looking for another one."

Does anybody else imagine it being any different?

Well?

I'm waiting again...



:o

[Skeeter Muppet]

Please don't invoke the tired ploy of citing what I've said and asking me to apologise to others, in an effort to paint me as a reckless ogre. Longtime forum members have been through it all before; it isn't fooling anyone.

Cripes, I didn't say anything that bad, anyway

Bull****. You insulted ArggueRadio by insinuating that he did drugs with that "are you high" crack (as in insult, not drug for all of you with your minds still in the gutter). You insulted ME by acting like an *** after I pretty much pointed out that you had insulted Arggue.

You may not be a reckless ogre, but right now you apparently have no regard for the feelings of others.

-Kim

[sidcrowe]

Skeeter...

You're the one trying your best to swear at my comments, and calling me a (class-cl).

You are the one name-calling.

I deconstruct ideas.

I have the most care for the feelings, well being and SAFETY of all the members here. I have no patience for gangs of murderers. You seem to tolerate them just fine. Good thing you're not State Sheriff.

Of course, now I have to decide whether or not to drag out another old trick, by saying that I knew you were going to react like this, and I told you so, and nyah-nyah-nyah, etc.

Annnnd that I'm right because the only thing you're willing to contribute is spinning your wheels on a separate, unrelated non-issue that you've invented yourself just because you can't handle debating the real issue.

Y'know what? I'm deciding against that. I'll say this instead.

Grow the helll up, already.

The Crips are MURDERERS, and if you join them, you're ready to KILL for them.

Snoop-Diggity-no-talent will NOT renounce the Crips, and that means he still approves of them.

That means he's a dirtbag scumwad criminal porno-making smut peddler gangsta, and he can't be in something nice like a Jim Henson Christmas special.

The people at Henson made a mistake, they fixed it because I am right and you are wrong.

Why?

You wanna know why?

I'll tell you. Listen closely. Here it comes.

"Thou shalt not kill."

Now, Skeeter, unless you've got the mind or the guts to attempt to explain away murder, I suggest you admit defeat, go back to listening to Snoop No-talent, and take note of the fact that I still haven't called you any names.

That's what you get when you call the crowe a name, and use the bad form of "bullshirt."

You get the truth.

Murder is wrong.

Duh!

:rolleyes:

[frogboy4]

Please, you guys. This conversation doesn't have to be so heated. You both have good points but it is important to respect others as well. Just trying to diffuse things so they don't explode later on. This has been a rather heated thread.

Thanx;)

[grail]

Originally posted by sidcrowe
Please don't invoke the tired ploy of citing what I've said and asking me to apologise to others, in an effort to paint me as a reckless ogre. Longtime forum members have been through it all before; it isn't fooling anyone. ***? i wasn't trying to "paint you" as anything. what you said was wrong. it was rude, it was insensitive, and it was offensive. and when someone tried to point that out in a nicer way than i would have if i had gotten here first, you bashed her too. well, AruggeRadio may not have been here too long, but everything i have seen from them so far has been well thought out and even-handed, and Skeeter IS my friend. i was angry with what you said about them both, and made sure you knew it. i STILL believe you owe them both an apology, and furthermore, i would now like one myself. i don't give a flying **** about the personal politics anymore, that was just freakin' rude. i was NOT trying to "fool" anymore, and how dare you imply that i was. i have, in fact been one of the few folks repetedly pointing out that even though other's ideas may be unpopular, they ARE entitled to them. they are NOT, however, and this goes for everyone, allowed to bash others for having views and ideas that are different.

i am sick and tired of the intolerant myopic ******** that only want to come in here and start trouble, and i think you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

but you won't be...you'll use this as a reason to bash me some more...well have fun...******.

[Skeeter Muppet]

Originally posted by frogboy4
Please, you guys. This conversation doesn't have to be so heated. You both have good points but it is important to respect others as well. Just trying to diffuse things so they don't explode later on. This has been a rather heated thread.

Thanx;)

Sorry to say this, Jamie, but I think the bomb squad came in too late on this one. We've crossed into the realm of personal flames. I've taken it to e-mail right now; we'll just have to wait and see if the other party will follow suit.

-Kim

[sidcrowe]

I've officially lost track of all the people I allegedly owe an apology to.

I've simultaneously lost track of anyone who has the moral ammunition or wits to answer my points on the debate itself. I find I may have been mistaken for actually attempting to address both sides of the argument.

Your combined last few posts are textbook examples of what a lousy internet chat is all about: fiddling, meticulously detailed extrapolations of pointless minutiae accompanied by a rapid degeneration of coherent ideas and an abrupt and irretrievable decay in the quality of language used.

When confronted with an argument you can't win, your minds sputter and whistle like a kettle bought at a bargain clearing-house. On special, I might add.

Once you have deigned your minds to be cleared of both the simple rhymes of Snoop Dogg and a hefty amount of bong resin, you might wake up and realize that murder is all three of these things:

Serious

Ugly

Real

It is because the subject of murder does not carry any significant amount of gravity for a few of you here that I refuse to be cute, or, even for the genteel good of the thread, apologize for trifles which you have magnified to high crimes in your own imaginations.

I will, have in the past and would now apologize fro real slights, not these little things that you draw attention to. I will not validate your errors.

Furthermore, I will certainly not entertain such requests made by people who, in so doing, insult me genuinely, utilizing both foul language and name-calling as they do so.

Snoop is proud of his real gang past.

His real old gang really killed people.

He made real, explicit, XXX-rated porn last year.

Jim Henson wouldn't have allowed a person of that ilk to be on a Muppet Show; you know that.

Oh, wait a second–––you don't want to debate the real issue. Sorry, I forgot that for a moment.

I'll let you three get back to burying your heads in the sands of your little "apology" drama.

Because, as Jack Nicholson once said...

"You can't handle the truth."

:D

[Skeeter Muppet]

You're STILL evading the issue I emailed you about (you DID read that, right? If you did, you STILL choose to bring this to the message board? At least I TRIED to keep it separate...). Is that deliberate, or are you just naturally...nah, I won't say it.

Considering the fact that the "real issue" got edited out of the final product and is now resting on the cutting room floor, WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT? He's NOT going to be on, so TECHNICALLY there's nothing for all of you who DIDN'T want him on in the first place to worry about!

I say that someone just LOCK this thread already, and we just let this issue die. If you want to debate why he was on in the first place, take it up with the people who invited him to be on the special in the first place.

-Kim

[grail]

how dare you...

you smug little holier than thou *******! there is not ONE SINGLE PERSON HERE that is advocating murder, as you keep trying to imply. and you just flat out stated that we were all on drugs, and you have the pure sack to sit there in your little glass house and say that we insulted YOU? what you don't seem to get is that we all seem to AGREE that he shouldn't be on the show. none of us actually seem to enjoy him. but if he is truly trying to turn his image around, then i am behind him 100%. i don't care how many mistakes one has made, there is always room for redemption. i would never keep a person from that chance.

the "truth" that you claim to have given us is one only of your own invention, and not any type of real insight at all...

get a life, jerk

[AruggeRadio]

From sidcrowe:
<<<He made real, explicit, XXX-rated porn last year.

Jim Henson wouldn't have allowed a person of that ilk to be on a Muppet Show; you know that.>>>

Yes, Henson did allow someone like that to be on the Muppet show. Sylvester Stallone, did a XXX Movie in the early 1970's its no secret, yet he was still a guest star on the muppet show. Jim Henson still allowed Sly to appear on the muppet show even though it was common knowledge that Sly did that film.

I find it funny that all you could do to put yourself over is to personally attack myself for stating something. What I had stated were facts, obviously you fear facts. You yourself may have not called Snoop a Murder but others did. Thats what I was stating thank you. But I'm not going to lower myself to your level. The topic on hand is Censorship, and our forefathers didn't fight for Free Speech just to have some yahoo with a pen who doesn't like one persons opinion decided what you or I can hear and read.

[sidcrowe]

It's plain to see you were behind Snoop "100%" right from the start.

If nothing else, the conduct of his most ardent fans proves what kind of people he attracts.

I don't apologize to people who call me foul names as they ask me to do so. They don't deserve it. Plus, I have no need to apologize. The last big snit I was in was with Luke, and I apologized to him in public and in private. But no to you lot. So there :p

You folks are collectively––like an angry alcoholic vagrant.

You're minding your own business in public, then the vagrant looks at you and says, as he's spoiling for a fight:

"What are you looking at?"

Then a normal person says, in order to avoid conflict with someone who wants to start something:

"I'm not looking at anything."

The angry vagrant answers with:

"You saying I'm NOTHING?!!!"

You see? An argument over nothing. That's what you've made.

"Get a life"

Oh, HOW ORIGINAL OF YOU!

We've all never heard THAT one before :rolleyes:

We're ALL on a Muppet messageboard; why don't you ask that question of yourself :D

You three don't have the scope or the depth to understand what a special thing Jim Henson gave us.

The good things in the world are rare and precious.

You've demonstrated NO moral outrage whatsoever about Snoop's participation in the Christmas special, and no amount of jubilation over his being cut out of it. But YOU ARE angry, spoiling for a fight, and determined to start one over nothing, aren't you?

Just like an angry street vagrant.

We know what you're really angry about. Your Snoop is booted off the Henson show. Good! He should be.

In regards to your insistence that your anger is fueled by something else...I quote from William Shakespeare:

"He doth protest too much."

;)

[Skeeter Muppet]

You've demonstrated NO moral outrage whatsoever about Snoops participation in the Christmas special, and no amount of jubilation over his being cut out of it.

Because I never cared that he was on in the first place. And I've never cared for Snoop Dogg in the first place. That doesn't mean I have the right to judge him or any of his fans, unlike certain people in this forum (I'm not naming names; I don't have to). You are putting words in our mouths now, and drawing conclusions.

I repeat, someone close this thread NOW, before things REALLY get out of hand.

-Kim

[petrieboy]

"The broadcast would have reinforced popular culture's sterotype of black males as foul mouthed, gangbanging, dope dealing homeboys"

Yeah, darn those stereotypical foul mouthed, gangbanging, dope dealing homeboys who, so stereotypically, won't stop trying to appear on Muppet programs.

I'm gonna say it again- I am a Christian- and I have had it up to the gills with this world. The world is a big, stinkin, nasty, drugged out, dreary and violent place with little bits of goodness thrown in all around. Let's think of Snoop like a "bad" kid... you reprimand the kid when he does something wrong, fine. But you reprimand the kid when he does something right (agrees to spend time with life-affirming creatures of foam and felt) and YOU are the one in the wrong.

If you're concerned about your child being exposed to Snoop, or anyone else who's a human being who hasn't lived a "Godly" life, then why not sit down and watch the show with your child--- explaining that though we all sin, God will forgive us. I can guarantee you that Snoop would not have brought any violence, cursing, or sex to this Christmas special.

The Muppets never fail to act out the grace of God--- but denying Snoop a chance at "redemption" is the furthest thing from grace.

Ever hear the line from that most famous of Christmas songs...
"GOD AND SINNERS RECONCILE"

[sidcrowe]

AruggeRadio

Yes, take note of what YOU really said: A 70s porno.

That's been around for years. And it was soft core; meaning Sly didn't show his genitals. Read about it years ago.

Snoop's video is as explicit as can be. No matter how much venom gets bandied about here, I will NOT discuss what happens in the Snoop video. Big difference between a lame sofcore from the 70s and a woman-belittling hardcore vid from a year ago. Now, to review again, just for you:

Sly was never a member of a murderous organization; Snoop was.

Snoop was a member of a gang of killers who killed people...DEAD!

Murder...

Kill...

Dead...

There's some sand on the ground, I suggest you start burying your head in it.

:rolleyes:

[sidcrowe]

petrieboy...

The innocent people who have been KILLED by the *&^%$#@ Crips aren't getting ANY second chances.

And until Snoop RENOUNCES his past REAL gangsta life, he has NO place on a Henson special.

If parents have a problem with Snoop on the show, they should......wait, here's a better idea....they should just THANK THEMSELVES FOR KEEPING THE FELON OFF IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Works for me :)

(the only one still using smilies in this)

(boy, Froggy is gonna shut this right down when he gets back :eek: )

[Skeeter Muppet]

(boy, Froggy is gonna shut this right down when he gets back )

This thing should have been shut down a LONG time ago.

-Kim

[sidcrowe]

I'd bet this is gonna be frozen real soon, so just to put it in a nutshell:

Snoop Dogg was in league with a clearly defined group of killers.

He needs to renounce that life--IN A BIG WAY––before he gets in a Henson project.

He hasn't, and he got in anyway.

Henson is an oasis of calm and goodness, and I hate to have it violated.

I take it pretty seriously, I guess :(

[petrieboy]

The Crips killed a bunch of people huh? So, in the past, did psycho fundamentalist (but fully lost and Godless) Christians, and I label myself a Christian. Would you have kicked me off the show, seeing as how I've yet to murder anyone.

[grail]

petrieboy, you are my new hero...

[sidcrowe]

petrieboy

No, you see, the Crips were ACTIVELY killing, and Snoop thought: "that's for me."

When you joined your church, it was not actively burning witches.

Anything else you need explained?

:rolleyes:

[grail]

yes, because none of us EVER talk about killing someone, do we sid? do you know what the word "hypocrite" means? how about the word "bigot"? i mean if you're going to accuse me of namecalling anyway, i might as well actually do so, and use some accurate names...i'd tell you that you were the pot calling the kettle black, but then you go into a panic because you think i called you black...and that's just unacceptable, right? why don't we listen to you and keep anyone who doesn't agree with your way of doing things out. while we're at it, let's beat up some gay people and learn to hate based on the color of one's skin.

you're an idiot...

[sidcrowe]

Grail

That's pathetic. Hey, you keep building an argument on nothing, dear. Way to go.

Shake the sand out of your head and tell me when I have ever said a bad word about gays. Freddie Mercury is my favourite rock singer.

It's called a "thread" for a reason. Why don't you back up a few posts and you'll discover that I ALREADY equated accepting Snoop without a renouncement of his evil life would be akin to accepting a WHITE neo-Nazi skinhead with a few rhymes who beats up gays and Jews without having him renounce HIS EVIL ways.

Is there anything else YOU would like explained, pop tart?

I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

[sidcrowe]

Well, some of us have to work for a living.

You've done a fine job, all of you; attacking me together at once.

What a perfect example of the gangs who you just WILL NOT condemn, will you?

-Goodnight

:o

[petrieboy]

Maybe it is my fault, concentrating on Christianity. Maybe none of this has to do with Christianity and I've just assumed that it does (it usually does.) Maybe you are just concerned citizens, family agenda supporters, the Anti Gang Commitee of Tennessee... I dunno. If you do abide by the law of Christianity, then I think you're a big fat hypocrite for tossing Snoop away and scorning him. If you play by other rules, well I don't agree with those rules. I don't agree with murder, but I don't see what murder has to do with a Muppets appearance, on a Christmas special of all things. Are we not more than the worst of our faults and errors? Were you there when Snoop shot someone? Do you know what exactly happened? Did you grow up in a ghetto and experience the harsh reality of Snoop's world? Or do you only hear about it through the "filth" of his lyrics, of which you don't read or listen to anyway? Have you thought of putting yourself in even the same room as his shoes - have you considered that he might be feeling rejected, possibly even sad, and hated for appearing on a family Christmas show and being removed and told it was due to editing? Give me a break- unless he has worse acting skills than Vanilla Ice, the editors would have made room. Maybe Snoop's fault, aside from any allegation of murder, is that he is more honest than many of us, throwing the crap in his life out for the public- airing his dirty laundry, while the rest of us hide it in our closets and put on a pretty face. What if we all were reduced by the public to the worst of our behavior, and hated for the worst of our sins, so that we were not allowed to appear on a family oriented show? We might resent that public even more... act out even more... set an even worse example. Love breeds love... rejection breeds rejecting. Hate breeds hate. To me, this is as clear cut as day and night. But I forget that some people live in (metaphor coming...) places like Alaska and Norway, where day and night often blend. They tend to be bitterly cold places. There is a film I can't recommend highly enough for any Christian, or anyone who wants to know what true Christianity is, "The Eyes of Tammy Faye." For the rest of you, I've not a clue what it will take to open your hearts.

[sidcrowe]

I was going to bed, but as I checked my hotmail for the last time, somebody made another post.

It seems some others are missing. Hmmm.

Anyway, petrieboy, why don't you visit the families of some of the people those gangs killed. Those thugs made those families a lot poorer than any inner-city kid could ever be.

No excuses for those who take everything away from others.

"It's a he(ll) of a thing, killing a man. You take away everything he's ever had, and everything he will have"
Clint Eastwood, Unforgiven

[grail]

pop tart?

let me make a quote too: "Get bent" - Mike Wickliff, 10/7/02

you're an ***, spouting rhetoric, and trying to twist the words of others so that you look good. i hate this whole vile thread, as i can look back and see exactly where i got ****** off, and i do not GET ****** off very easily. but one can tell that you're just feeding off of it. i would love to say that i was "done", wash my hands of it, and walk away...but then you would claim victory, and i cannot let that happen. you and your way of thinking are a disease. you hide behind "god and country", all the while subtly pushing your own agenda on the people who see the half-truths, and are naive enough to follow along. in the past, i have seen you as a bit heavy-handed, but usually with a good point behind it. now i see how dangerous that thinking was. you have done nothing but deflect what has been said to you into frivilous tangents, all the while saying that none if us would discuss the real issue, which is exactly what we were doing...we just didn't aknowledge what you said as the main issue. all i wanted you to do was apologize for implying that one of your fellow members on this board must have been high to try and at least aknowledge that there was a second side to the story. they made a valid statement, that you tried to invalidate by trying to discredit the person saying it. no one bit. in fact, someone else, someone i call "friend", called you on it. so you tried to discredit her too. that's when _I_ got into it. i will not allow people to treat my friends in such a shameless manner. then you had the audacity to try and imply that we were all gangsta fans on drugs. that was the last straw. i have always been a pretty easy-going guy. usually, people can say what they like about me, and i don't care because i know they are wrong. but you don't know me at all, you don't know my life...and you are NOT to insult me like that. drugs, in all their forms, are an evil, vile thing. so evil, in fact that i go through almost every day in constant pain because i refuse to take anything to quell it. i am afraid of the potential that exists for something to go wrong. i've seen it happen. and i will not let you take away all that effort with a wave of ill-informed words. you still PROBABLY would have only gotten email from me, pointing out all that i have just said, but you had to insult my friends...that just doesn't fly. i will NOT sit idly by while you assault someone else's character. you don't get to. just by trying to see the situation from multiple angles, they have proven that they are ten times the person you are. and let me steal some thunder, since i know you're going to try it...yes, i just did the same thing i accused you of. i just assaulted your character. but you know what? i don't care. i'm telling you the truth as i see it. the hope is that you'll take a long, hard look at how you have conducted yourself over the course of this thread. i know that what i personally have resorted to sickens me. i don't like cursing at people. i don't like calling names. and i detest insulting people, even you. but i felt it was necessary to get the point accross. so congratulations...in a way, you did win. you dragged me down to your level. but now you're going to pay for that. i hope that makes you feel good.

oh, and one more quote - "The road to he-ll is paved with good intentions" you may want to think on that a little.

Mike

[sidcrowe]

Grail...

"you dragged me down to your level."

Oh, that's RICH! And so original to use in an online argument, too :rolleyes:

Listen chum, I'm disappointed in myself for wallowing in this mire, but I chose to do so.

You chose to do so, as well. We both did. At least I'm owing up to it.

Or, are you--in this very moment––demonstrating the same bankrupty of the will and shirking of responsibility that you endorse in Snoop? Oh, boo-hoo, he had a hard time. Well, I'VE HAD a hard time of it as well, and that doesn't give me ANY right to kill an innocent.

You can't even have a mean-spirited argument without blaming it on your environment. That says it all :rolleyes:

Why don't you save some bile for Snoop, instead of your fellow Muppet fans.

The best comment I heard on the OJ trial was this: "If you stand in front of a TV CAMERA and call the proceedings a 'circus,' you are one of the clowns."

That means we're all on equal footing in this argument.

I put myself here, Grail. I don't assume superiority. Can't you at least take responsibility for participating in an argument?

Well, no, you can't. The proof is right up there.

Unless, of course, you'd care to edit it out.

Keep that head in the sand, pal :p

[grail]

first off...don't you dare call me "chum" you're not allowed.

secondly, i have NEVER said i endorse the man, i said that if he truly was trying to turn his life and his image around, then he deserved to be able to do it. i didn't mention his environment in that post at all, i don't know what you're reading. and for the record, you aren't the only one who's had it rough in the past. i've had one heck of a rough time of it, but i don't bring it up because i made my life better, and i refuse to use my past as a crutch. i did the work. i made my life better. crying that you had it rough doesn't wash with me. do i think there are sometimes extenuating circumstances? you bet your *** i do. do i care? nope. but if you love Henson as much as you claim, why not trust their judgement? they're the ones in charge, they've been doing it for a long time, and they know the whole story. which is something NONE of us can claim. if they allowed him to be in it, then they had a reason, despite all the "argument" you've put forth.

oh, and i fully accepted the fact that i PUT myself in this...but i did so because i refuse to let you win this. you are wrong, and i will fight you on every turn. you're the reason i'm here, there is no denying that, and i hate you for it. but that's why i fight the fight...because in the end, the result is worth it.

[frogboy4]

I have received enough complaints about this thread to warrant a statement.

There has been much name-calling and hot tempers with many members on this thread. It is not necessary for everyone to agree and this has turned from being a healthy debate long ago.

If you cannot show mutual respect and stay on topic then please move on. Nobody is stupid and no one's opinion is worthless and it doesn't appear that anyone has new information to add. This whole thing has gotten really silly.

I hate getting into these things and I will not sift through rights and wrongs. It really is time to move on.

Thanx

[grail]

sorry Jamie, but i still believe he owes both AruggeRadio and Skeeter Muppet an apology. what he said was rude, and inconsiderate, and they deserve at least that much.

[frogboy4]

I hear what you are saying, but sorting out rights and wrongs just doesn't look productive at this point. People seldom get the apologies they feel they are owed. It's an unfortunate fact of life. It's best if we just all move on from here.

[grail]

i don't like it, but alright. it's not like i have much choice in the matter.

[Skeeter Muppet]

If you cannot show mutual respect and stay on topic then please move on.

Personally I think that's the big problem for some people...actually two big problems...

But nevertheless, I will move on. Besides, I lost all iota of respect for you-know-who a LONG time ago.

-Kim

[AruggeRadio]

Sidcrow

No Sly was in a hardcore porno. Showing his genitals and also having sex on film, trust me I saw the film in college. If you want to confirm it I'm sure you can find a copy of it on ebay.

You stated in your earlier post that we have forgotten what henson gave us, or we don't get what henson gave us. On the contrary I live my life by the teachings of Jim Henson. He tough us to love our brother and sister, each one is different and the same. That we all have to live together to make our society succeeded.

The thing is in these posts regarding Snoop Dogg, you along with Patty E have not only shown yourself to be a raciest, but also disrespectful of the others people that post on this board. Just because we don't see things the way you do that I must be on drugs, or Luke is an idiot, Or Skeeter is childish. The only person I see acting that way is yourself. Heck I posted right before I went to bed 8 hours ago, and low and behold there is like 6 new from you. What do you do just press the refresh bottom over and over?

The point I was trying to make is rather you like it or not Snoop Dogg along with Dr. Dre and others furthered the art of Hip Hop music to another plateau. To be honest I'm not a huge fan of Snoop Dogg, I only own his first 2 records. But I still appreciate what he has done and understand because I take two seconds to listen to the meaning in something to understand that he is talking about a lot more then just glorifying gang banging. But i must be on drugs to see that, sense thats such elementary school rib. As an artist myself I get tired of hear of people that want to block art just because they think it may be morally objectionable for there pore kids. Instead of doing there job as a parent and actually parenting there kids they look for an easy way out. Which I find hypocritical, and I find yourself to be a hypocrite.

[tomahawk]

wow!! i've been gone for two days and people go crazy. j/k. anyways, sidcrowe, i read through your posts and i think its you who is missing the point. this thread started off by a person making a statement about how horrible snoop was, accompanied by a letter to mr. rivkin saying how irresponsible the jim henson company was for allowing such a disturbing human being on the christmas show. i don't think all of the people that have been posting here on this thread are condoning his actions. i think what most of us are trying to get through to some people is the simple fact that a group of people should not decide what is and is not right for the rest of the population to watch or listen to.

[sidcrowe]

Grail

The "chum" stands for "Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Moron."

I wasn't crying about anything. I was trying--in vain--to be an example to you.

The only example you admire is the example of a whining, cowardly lump of excrement called Snoop, who joined with other degenerate scumbags who kill others for sport.

Not a bad word to say about Snoop, ANYWHERE, huh?

Typical :o

What a fitting experiment. A bunch of people who will not look through all the lies and hype and wrestle with the reality of urban killer gangs. This, in microcosm, is the reason why gangs are allowed to flourish. There is no will within you to eliminate them.

Folks like you always see the light...just as the bullet flies into your head.

Let the scummy Snoop find somewhere else to rework his contrived public persona.

Snoop does his best work in the same place where your mind is: in the GARBAGE pail of the editing room.

When that special airs, you'll be steaming, and thinking of me.

I'll be thinking of you, and laughing.

(now, it's off to my JOB...adios for the next 11 hours or so. Talk amongst yourselves, and maybe form a Snoop appreciation society. Don't forget there are still Crips and Bloods around. Go out and find some, and talk Muppets with them. Best of luck to you all with that)

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by sidcrowe
[B]petrieboy

No, you see, the Crips were ACTIVELY killing, and Snoop thought: "that's for me."

****************

Really? Is this true? Did Snoop Dogg actually say this? Could find me an interview or press kit or somethin' where he said this? I don't remember Snoop or any gang member joining so that they could kill.

[Cantus' Ghost]

Originally posted by danielromens
Jesse Jackson was a speaker who sometimes outraged caucasian middle and southern americans yet he was on sesame street. Henson had many friends in the artworld. Andy Warhol a known drug user and experimenter in the counter culture was a fan and friend. David Bowie another edgy artist and musician. In a lot of ways Henson was counterculture.




Exactly! Henson IS counterculture!


:D :D

[towels]

Originally posted by sidcrowe
The "chum" stands for "Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Moron."

Ummm, sidcrowe? In case you missed it, calling names is no longer welcome here...

A few other quotes deserving rebuttal...

Originally posted by Zack the Dog
what people aren't understanding is that snoop openly dose this suff, like you can look at his face and that's what you will think of,
For some reason this phrase really bugs me. It almost smacks of racism. I'm not sure how the look of his face makes one think of drugs, porn, etc. I suppose maybe if you have some prior context, but hopefully Patty's kids aren't getting exposed to that context (and if they are, that is the real problem, not Snoop's cameo)

Originally posted by Patty E.
The broadcast would have reinforced popular culture's sterotype of black males as foul mouthed, gangbanging, dope dealing homeboys.
If there is a line in the Muppet Christmas Movie script about capping some ho's maybe...but I'll have to see proof before I believe that.

Originally posted by Patty E.
B.B. King and Smokey Robinson, are a few ringers, that are well respected in the community.
And what community is that? NBC's coveted "teen" bracket?
:rolleyes:

and finally...
Originally posted by sidcrowe
The act of murder transcends this debate.

Good people jostle one another with words–not bullets.

Those involved with the business of killing their fellows should never be entertained or tolerated by those who do not. While I do not believe in everlasting punishment, I DO believe in eternal vigilance against those who would soil and ruin the good things of the world.

In case you missed the news on the front page, someone else in league with murderers has recently made an appearance on a Henson related project. For some reason Sesame Street (which is targetted at kids) allowed an appearance by one Laura Bush, who is married to a George Bush, who has sent his gunmen into someone else's "turf" killing hundreds of civilians in the process.
~~~~

Hey, I've got an idea. How about if we turn all this protest energy to a good cause. Currently the only places I'm able to buy Muppet music is in CD stores that frequently have posters up of offensive material. (I'll consider a Snoop poster as more of an infomercial than this cameo would have been). Why don't we all work to reopen the Muppet stores so we all can shop in peace?

:D

[Thog]

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,10634,00.html?eol.tkr

[beaker]

Being as I seriously like Sidcrowe, Grail, Skeeter, and most others on here...I dont wanna add any gasoline to this. I do wanna comment on just the comments...not towards the people who said them.

I didnt care for the comparison of Snoop to fascist extremists.
That was out of line, as most of us are indifferent or dont care about Snoop one way or another...he isnt a threat.

Pat Robertson, Louis Farrakan, Jerry Falwell, and others I'd be horrified by...as they have shown off their true religious extremism.

To Jamie...I know your a moderator...but it seem slike people have stuff that needs to be said. And believe me, sometime soon these little 'heated' arguments will just be the tip of the iceburg(if various rumblings jhc related are indeed going down by year's end)

[Phillip Chapman]

Due to a variety of complaints from all sides, this thread is being closed. Jamie and others have tried repeatedly to get this on topic and some have decided to continue to make personal threats against others in this discussion.

Calling others names will not be tolerated as that does not serve the purpose of this forum and can result in a termination of your account. Posting here is a privilege, it's not a given right if you abuse those privileges or make personal attacks towards others. This discussion and others related to Snoop are now closed. If new threads are started along this line they will be closed as well.

Henson made their decision to cut Snoop 12 days ago. As Jamie said we need to move on and stop hurting other people in the process. There are lots of other places on the Internet where you can debate Snoop's behavior if that's what you want to do.