Which Film do you want to see get made?

[matleo]

OK so over the courseof the lats few years, we've heard various reports of various film scrpits "the Muppets have looked into doing.

1) "Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made"-- Gonzo writes a movie and blows the budget on the opening credits and the film spirls downhill after that. based on an idea by Juhl/Henson/Oz.

2) "Muppet Haunted Hotel"-- After being turned into spirits on Halloween, the Muppets must learn to use their new ghostly abilities to find a way back to the real world.

3) "The Muppet Movie II" aka "The Next Muppet Movie"-- The beloved Muppets have basically been broken up by an evil Hollywood producerand Kermit has to get them all back together and remind them what the spirit of the Muppets is. Written by Bryan Lynch

4) "Muppet in Time"--No info as of yet, but I would imagien it has soemhitng to with time travel and Muppets.

So my quesiton is which one do you want to see get made and what kind of stuff would you like to see done in it?

Me pesonally, I'm really excited about the idea of "the Next Muppet Movie". I read a review of the script overr at AICN which spoke highly of it's feel and content and mentioned names like floyd, Lew, Fozzie, Zoot and Rizzo in the context of prominent roles. As well as places for the Clifford, Pepe, bobo, etc. If made, I'd like ot see frank handle the directign duties as he is said he would like ot direct the next film and use it as a springboard to 'pass the torch to newer puppeteers' which I thnk this storyline wuold also accomplish. Ithink it would let the Muppeteers come full circle and allow those ready to retire the chance for one last huzzah both for them and their fans. What do the rest of you think?/
BTW: for thsoe who wan to see the review of this script, here's the link...
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=3898

--Matt

[kansasteen14]

I would really like the next muppet movie and they all sound ok except Muppet Haunted House.

[Crazy Harry]

The plot for Haunted Hotel sounds WAY to cheasy for the Muppets. Maybe if it used a cast of all new characters I would resent it less.

[matleo]

I think it might work asa TV special kinda like the X-mas thing they'r doing now. I'd like to see Brian Henson direct cause he's good with setting the mood and toen and he's not afraid to let the Muppets do drama which is interesting. He's also seems ot have a fondness for effects shots. but if I really wnaetd ot see one, it would be the Next Muppet Movie. Does anyone have more info on this one, besides what's in that review?

--Matt

[matleo]

Just did a little more diggin and whil I have turned up no info on "Muppet Movie 2" which I thiknk is what I'm going to start referring to it as just to avoid confusion) I have turned up an author for the "Haunted Hotel" script. Apparently, Joey Mazzarino is the scribe behind this. So far Joey's other wirting credits include MFS, EIG, KSY, and of course, SS. so we have a Juhl/Henson/Oz idea, a Mazzarino script, and a script from Brian Lynch all in play. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the "Time Travel' script comes from Kirk Thatcher. Can anyone in here with any 'inside sources' back that up?
--Matt

[beaker]

As much as I love Joey's characters...the idea for his movie sounds liek the wrong direction for the Muppets.

My vote would have to be for an idea we havent heard. I know they dont take soliticed ideas...but I think Im not alone in saying an idea for something truly epic, Juhl involved, Sesame and other property cameo involved, and creature shop involved would so rock these other ideas into oblivion.

[Gonzo]

I'm with you, Beak...the key is going to be in the writing of this, and Jerry Juhl has always been the best. Unfortunately, it seems like he's pretty much retired, at least from Muppet projects. It would be wonderful if Oz and Juhl could be brought back to work on a story like "The Next Muppet Movie;" It seems like it has the right kind of storyline to re-launch the Muppets...but I would wait for another few years at least (hopefully on the heels of a few successful seasons on TV) before attempting another big screen outing.

I wouldn't be opposed to a few holiday-themed made for tv movies, like the NBC Christmas one, in the meantime, and the Haunted Hotel seems fine as a Halloween themed one. My one concern about "The Next Muppet Movie" is that it's AWFULLY similar to both TMM and MTM...which makes for a great movie, but may be too formalaic for our good friends.

Quinnnnnnnnnn

[matleo]

OK, more digginh, more info.....

First off, Quinn, you seem to have hit the Muppephone right on the head. Any and all interviews I've found regarding these projects have said that they're waiting to do another series before launching another film and they will select the film based on the tone and feel of the new series.

An interview that our own Ken Plume penned a few years ago with Brian Henson at ignfilmforce, states Kirk Thatcher is the author behind the "Haunted Hotel" script. So we have two authors listed for that now.

If "Next Muppet Movie" gets made, I doubt Jerry Juhl will be involved as it is an already completed script. I've actually found an e-mail for Brian Lynch (a fellow Jerseyan) and asked him what the status of this film is. I'll let you know if he writes back.

In the meantime, I dug up an interview with him from 2000 where he talks about having been hired by Henson to write another script for them based on an idea by some of the 'higher ups'. "Cheapest Muppet Movie" perhaps? He didn't say as at that time he was only about 70 pages into writing it and not sure wat he was allowed to talk about. But I do think it's odd that for a long time "Cheap-o" was someting that was being talked up by Frank and Jerry and no one at JHC seemed interested, then this Lynch guy mentions working on another story developed by 'higher ups' @ JHC, and then Danny turns up a merchandising sheet that lists "Cheap-o" as being one of the next films they want to produce. interesting....Anyway, in the interview that I found, Lynch also talks about having met with JHC to discuss the next series and is hoping to do some writing for that as well. Time will tell.

--Matt

[Gonzo]

"Time will tell????"

I HATE time!!!

Time is my immortal enemy, and has been since the beginning. Patience is not a strong suit. Then again, neither is Spades, and they never complain. I shall just have to wait.

Quinnnnn

[matleo]

Originally posted by Gonzo
My one concern about "The Next Muppet Movie" is that it's AWFULLY similar to both TMM and MTM...which makes for a great movie, but may be too formalaic for our good friends.


Well, I think part of the idea is that it's kind of like a sequel in some ways to TMM. They're in Hollywood, they've established themselves and over time, Hollywood has kind of ruined them and what they are about. That thing, that love that first brought them together is what in the end breaks them up. In many ways I think this film is very prophetic. I mean it's not only a statement about what the Muppets have been recently facing, but on Hollywood and it's ability to just 'suck' people in and destroy them. That you can go in and tihnk you're there to be creative and artistic and make great films and 'make millions of people happy' but in the end, money is everywhere out there and that's what it comes down to. It's a moral story about can Kermit&co's dreams endure the pressures of a society where money talks. What's the breaking point for these characters? I mean the Muppets will NEVER find the deal they had with Lord Grade, it just wouldn't happen nowadays. he took a real chance on them. So what happens when you're faced with a producer (in this case the role of Mick, the bad guy) who could come off wanting to look out for them but is really out for his own personal gain.
Yeah it may a bit formulaic but I think if it's done right and it's done well it could really be a great movie.

--Matt

[Gonzo]

I agree, and if they did it right, there'd be plenty of room for some biting satire of Hollywood and the whole "system." I'm just wondering if they'd really put teeth into it, right after being given another chance by (fill in the blank with whichever studio/people end up acquiring our friends). Maybe a few jabs here and there, but not the balls-out assault that we're hoping for.

I love the idea that it was their success that tore them apart, and that they have to get over their individual careers and pride to reunite them. And what exactly would Floyd, Zoot, Lew, et al's role be that makes them into the "Boba Fett/antiheroes" of the piece? Just one-liners, or would their roles be more significant than in say, MTM?

I am intrigued by it....my other concern is that the AICN article is from 1999, and the ideas behind it go back years before that...I'm wondering how much movement there is on this front right now. I'd be all for it five years from now (or sooner, hopefully)...I've just learned to take my Muppety rumors with a healthy dose of skepticism. I learned it from "Muppets From Space" and "Kermit's Swamp Years," btw...I wasn't born with it.

Quinnnnnnnn

[Drtooth]

Muppets Cheapest movie is the one I'd want to see. Maybe they can work in the original "Muppets In Space" script (see this sites collection center's review of the Muppets jelly jars released in 98 for more info). I'd just love a part where the thing runs completly over buget, and one character (Gonzo) has to play all the roles at once, and splices in old "B-Movie" footage. I'd love to also see spliced in clips from other Muppet Movies redubbed by Gonzo doing everyone else's voices.

Muppets Next Movie, would be cool, if we are insured that Janice, Dr. Teeth, and Scooter (among others) would be involved.

Muppet Haunted house could work, if it's like a direct to video Halloween special.

Muppet Time travel could be, at least cute, if they go back in time to the 50's and meet Yorick, Sam, and the original Kermit (though it's awfully close to the Chipmunks' parody of Back to the Future).

I don't know. I just would have liked to see a script for "Muppets In Space."

[matleo]

Originally posted by Gonzo
And what exactly would Floyd, Zoot, Lew, et al's role be that makes them into the "Boba Fett/antiheroes" of the piece? Just one-liners, or would their roles be more significant than in say, MTM?


I don't know about Lew, but since the reviewer mentioed him, he obviously has some role in probably on par with his role in GMC. being a favorite character of mine I'd love ot seehim. Same goes for Zoot and Floyd, but to put this more into Muppet terms I think it would be kind of like how people took to Pepe in MFS. He wasn't really the star of the film, but he was certainly the most loved character in that movie....a cult character.

I agree with you Quinn, about taking Muppet rumors (especially film rumors) with a grain of salt. My original contact with MC came through trying to track down rumors on MFS and there were a lot of things we heard about at that time that sounded like it was going to be the best Muppet movie ever, but then things got edited and so forth. Still it is fun to speculate a little on what could be.

--Matt

[beaker]

JHC needs to run a conest for fans to send in script ideas...
as non of the above mentioned script ideas seem like the new direction the Muppets need.

I'm very curious about the fox show...I hope its very over the top, loaded with for the fans fan goodies, lot sof brought back from oblivion cameos(like koozebanians, frackles, etc)

For a movie I propose what Ive been saying for several years. A joint JHC/Creature Shop thing. Instead of some lame human actors like in every film theyve done, the antagonists should be like Skeksis or something...give it a really urgent edge to it instead of some bumbly bad guy played by Wilford Brimley.

I'm very concerned the next feature could be something we'd be collectively saying 'What have they done???' To combat this, they need to really push the envelope. Perhaps even adapt that edgy cinematic style seen on a Michael Mann or Spike Jonze film. I for one would like to see Being John Malkovich's Spike Jonze direct a Muppet film. It should also be "PG" not "G". this would allow for more dramam and stuff.

I also dont think the Muppet characters should be contained to just Muppet gang films. I can totally see a Swingers/MAde type comedy starring Pepe and a human actor. Hey, why not...
as they say in "Life as a Pet" From KSY "youve got to think outside the pond"

[matleo]

Hey Cory,
I actually thought long and hard about your post before I responded to it. mainly cause I had to go to work but that was a good thing cause it gave me time to think. There are a few places I at first disagreed with you but actually found a middle ground that I think would make for an intersting film. First off, I think the Muppets are stuck with a real catch-22 situation. Do you push the envelope (and risk fans saying "but that's not the Muppets') or do you stay true to from (and risk fans saying "been there, done that") you have to walk a tight rope between the two. Case in point, MFS was supposed to be a 'return to basics' kinda film with the characters playin themselves but they also abandoned a lot of things like centering the film on Gonzo and ditching musical numbers and they got ridiculed for that too. Muppets Tonight faced similiar compliants. So what do you do? I don't know if the idea of doing a full-blown out fantasy film with fantasy villains (ie Skeksis-type creations) appeals to me because part of the Muppets charm for me is that they exist in this our world and interact in it. When you enter another creature type thing, you either a) end up entering in another design element I tihnk would clash with the deisgn of the muppets and look odd or b) end up placing the muppets in a fantasy setting thus subtracting from their reailty. However, I started thinking about some of my favorite things from MTI, like Blind Pew, the pirates, and old Joe from MCC and was wondering if maybe you could find a balance. I liekd that MTI's villiains were both human and Muppet. I liekd that there was mix of threats and I thought you could do a good design through the Muppet workshop that would walk that line. Let's say creating darker Muppets. you know likje a lind Pew or an Uncle Deadly kind of character. Furthermore, cosidering the amount it cost just to produce a Muppet movie plus the costs of creature shop creations, when you realisethat Muppet films traditionally don't do well at the box office, form a business standpoint I don't think it woul be a good idea.

I also don't think you need to go with a PG rating in order to get drama. Fiirat off, again part of the Muppets appeal is that they are meant for a family audience and when you add in that PG, you start subtracting half of you target audience. Second, I think that MTi and MCC were very dramatic stories in their own right with some very intense scenes and both of those held a G rating. I tihn one of the things that impressed me most about Brian Henson as a director wasthat eh wasn't afraid to handle drama with the Muppets and I think it worked quite well. I think people's problems with these two films was that it wasn't the Muppets playing the Mupets but rather the Muppets playing an already established story and characters. this brigns us back to the point about the Muppets trying to think outside the box. Realise it or not, both of these films were they're attempt to do seomthign different, to treat the Mpupets as actors and see how they handled roles and it's what they criticized for. So when yo think outside the box, you have to think is this soemthign our fans are going to like or not and that's a tough call to make.

I like your choice of potential directors. I kinda wonder what Spike Jonez would do with them considering the potentially dark tone of a lot of his work. Can I make another recommendation? How about Terry Gilliam directing a Muppet film? He has an extensive background in make-up, special effects, animation and puppetry. And most of his films walk a line between the dark dramatic and absurdly silly (ie Eric the Viking, Adventures of Baron Munchausen, 12 Monkeys). He's a member of Monty Python so I think he'd be very in touch with their sensibilites but his ability to set the mood of a shot would also be of great use in a more drmatic sense. I think he'd be a marvelous choice for a Muppet director. I really tihnk he (more than most others) would be able walk that tightrope between going in a different direction and remaining true to the characters. Anyway, that's just my opinion. I actually like a lot of your ideas, but liek I said I think you need to find that common ground between pushing the edge and staying tru to the Muppets. Anyway, that's my two cents.

--Matt

[Gorgon Heap]

My vote goes for Cheapest! Just loved the premise and sound of that one.

Of course, if Next Muppet Movie means prominent roles for some of the lesser-known/oft forgot about Muppets, I'd consider this one too.

David "Gorgon Heap" Ebersole

[beaker]

Hey lone mantis of the apocalypse! It's funny, in the haste of a clouded weekend of KSY disarray, I most likely sounded bitter and alienated for a fleeting moment in an email or a few posts. One's thoughts can be misqued in a time of percieved heat.

But my goodness Matt, I could not agree more with you are give loud applause to ya my man...

this post is most eloquent! Terry Gilliam!!!

>>I really tihnk he (more than most others) would be able walk that tightrope between going in a different direction and remaining true to the characters. Anyway, that's just my opinion. I actually like a lot of your ideas, but liek I said I think you need to find that common ground between pushing the edge and staying tru to the Muppets. <<<

Couldnt agree with you more! gilliam(Baron, 12 Monkeys) or even Spike Jonze might be able to find a tight rope walk between traditional trilogy Muppet films and something new, clever, and edgy. To clarify, the inclusion of creature shop in a Muppet film for Skeksis like antagonists didnt mean I wanted a Fantasy film. It would still take place in real life New York or somewhere. Anyways, your sense of what might work in regards to Gilliam helming a Muppet project is most impressive. Some might not pick up that one would need a out there director that could capture that sense of strange starkness and offbeat humour.

A nexus of Muppet films is love, friendship, and adventure...oh and music, that is all central.

As for MFS, it lacked basic Muppet ingredients. Though I loved a lot of it, especially the first 20 minutes. Yes a new film would be classic vs. new, but if you strike a balance, like I hope they do with the upcoming Fox Show, gold will be struck and new fans will hopefully be a given.

As for the G rated thing and family films argument...
well int his day and age a film can be 'pg-13' and still be very family oriented. But youre right, handled right a G film could be very edgy and something new while still keeping it, well G.

[Salmoto]

What puzzled me about MFS was that the meaner, more adult Muppets like Rizzo, Statler and Waldorf were kept out of the main flow of action while they focused on a core group of kinder sweeter Muppets like Kermit, Gonzo, Fozzie, Bunson and Beaker. The reason Pepe was so applauded in that movie was becuase he was the only Muppet in that niceness group that had an attitude, and it seems almost every joke was played off of him in some way. Dr. Van Neuter was done wrong, I think they attempted his persona from Muppets Tonight; someone who was trying to be scary, but wasn't truly scary. His cameo in MFS involved him making bad jokes, falling for every dumb ploy by Gonzo and Rizzo, and reenacting ID4. There was a missed oppertunity to make the audience gasp and sympatize with Gonzo being strapped to a gurney by a madman there.

So the reason MFS didn't work cause it lacked bite, same with KSY apperanly (Haven't seen it yet so I'm not sure) If I had to pick a single script, I'd go with Brian Lynche's The Next Muppet Movie. Brian Lynch is a hilarious writer, who's independant projects "Big Helium Dog" and "Angry Naked Pat" are edgy and comical without dipping into potty humor. (Granted, Angry Naked Pat is always naked, but the jokes in the comic are more about making fun of pop culture icons.) Tie in that script with a good director and we may just see an audience look back upon the Muppets with genuine joy.

[Chilly Down]

I'd go with Cheapest. That's a Jim/Juhl/Oz idea. Plus, the thought of how Gonzo could mess up the movie seems like practically limitless comic material. Reminds me of the heyday of TMS.

Next Muppet Movie could be good if it's really gutsy, as some have said, but I fear that it would more likely be redundant of what we've already seen too many times before. Haunted House just sounds kinda weird, and also conjures up memories of the Muppet Monster Adventure game, which I hear wasn't that great. Time Travel -- not enough known about it. It could be a brilliant spoof of sci-fi movies, or a cheap advertisement for a game based on the same idea, depending on how it's handled.

Regarding the "G"/"PG" issue: while the notion of cute Muppets interacting with the darker Creature Shop characters is intriguing, the mainstream audience hasn't reacted well to those type of creations (unless Henson's doing it for someone else, oddly enough). Hence the box-office failures of both Dark Crystal and Labyrinth. However much one may personally like these films, the fact is that the Muppets are in too unstable of a position themselves to add further box-office poison by telling parents, "It's a new Muppet film, but you can't even take your youngest kids to it!"

I think it's entirely possible to generate proper suspense without getting very creepy. Look at the Toy Story movies. Everyone remembers how cute and fun they were, but they had genuinely menacing villains without going over the line. The climaxes of both films were nail-biting suspenseful and funny at the same time. I'd love to see a Muppet film with that kind of ending. Of course, I'm not sure how that would work with "Cheapest," since it's just about Gonzo making a movie. (Actually, I have an idea, but it's too long to go into right now.)

If they do want to have scarier, Uncle Deadly-like Muppets in the next film, may I suggest the JHH characters? They had a very specific design to them -- they were much harder-edged than anything we'd seen in a Muppet before or since, yet they still had kind of a Muppety look to them. The mass audience didn't warm up to them, so why not bring them back as the heavies? The fans would love the return of these characters, and the rest of the audience would be none the wiser -- they'd just think they were new Muppet characters.

I have more to say, but I gotta run. Great discussion!

[matleo]

Chilly

Oh! I liek the idea of using some of the JHH characters. That's interesting. I know Zondra and Chip both appeared in MFS and I heard Chip had an actual scene that got cut. But yeah, that could be interesting.

Sal
I had heard that about Lynch's work but am unfamilar with any of it myself. Actually the story surrounding this script is that he had written it as a sample script to send to studios. Henso got wind of it and loved it and of course bought it. BUt mainly he had written it because he was a fan of the Muppets. So I'm really interested in seeing this. Nest to that, "Cheapest" is the other one I'd want to see.

Cory
Glad yo uliked thew idea of using Gilliam. I actually had that inspiration a few weeks ago when I was watching a special on Monty Python and had kind of forgotten that I had it. So I think what I'd want to see in a new film is Terry Gilliam direct a script by Brian Lynch starring the Muppets!!!! Yeah!!! ow that would rock!!!

[Beauregard]

They have just made KSY so don't you think that with a Prequal to TMM they it would be hoping to much to have a sequel too?

[beaker]

>>>So the reason MFS didn't work cause it lacked bite, same with KSY apperanly (Haven't seen it yet so I'm not sure) <<<

No youre right...I will say I think MFS to me personally is my fave Muppet film since MTM(my favorite one)

Yeah, the Muppets taking on Creature Shop baddies was just an out there idea...however JHC does need to do *something* ambitious for the next film, and not just some junk themed throw away plot.

JHH Muppets would rock...we already saw Clifford graduate to main Muppet status, and Zondra and chip cameoed in MFS. So hopefully there's a comeback of sorts for Digit, Leon, and Lindburgh.

And maybe JHC would be ambitious enough to get a non kiddy related director(like how Hill was linked with Nickelodeon) like Spike Jonze, the mentioned on here Gilliam, etc to make some truly ambitious.

[matleo]

The other problem I think Tim Hill had was that it was his first motion picture where he was used to directing Saturday morning schlock for Nickelodeon. If you look at MFS, it moves way too quickly. He jumps form place to place as opposed to waking time to establish your villain, give us a reason to care baout Gonzo's plight, etc. I found I was tired about half-way through the film. There really aren't any scenes in that film that last more than 2 mintues or so. You can't direct a film with the sensitivities of a Saturday Morning cartoon, it just doesn't work. Whereas Gilliam and Jonez and and even Frank Oz and Brian Henson are storytellers and will take the time to set-up the scene and the characters and really tell a good story. Of course Frank's real strength is in establishing characters and telli a good character motivated story, Brian (as I mentioend eralier in this thread) is marvelous and getting what he wants out of a shot and setting the tone and mood of a piece. Gilliam is good at keeping a story movie and keeping the humor fast, but also takes a great care and into making sure what you see on the scene 'is just right. If you watch the Special edition DVD commentary on Monthy Ptyhon's quest for the Holy Grail, you'll hear John Cleese actually complain quite a bit abou this. I think Jonez is just weird and has a way of making his audience say "Whats did I just watch."

If you look at Muppet films of the past, 4 out of 6 have been directorial film debuts. So what makes Tim Hill's different form the other 3? Well, Henson, Henson and Oz had all worked with Muppets before and were aware of the technical difficulties and were in famliar environments. Tim Hill really took on a baptism by fire. I just don't think it worked vary well. now I'm kind of babbling and I tihnk I forgot what my point was, so I think I'm going to go have dinner now.
--Matt

[Salmoto]

I had heard that about Lynch's work but am unfamilar with any of it myself.


Matleo, go to http://www.angrynakedpat.com. There's a plethora of his work. He may upload viginettes from "Big Helium Dog" and his student film "They Came from Uranus" there. Be warned, at times the characters in the Pat strip are like the Anti-Muppets.

[sarah_yzma]

ooh ooh I'm going to bring up a thread from the DEAD! HAHAHAHA

since this topic is being discussed a lot lately, I decided this thread was one of the first ones, and had all ideas in it...not just one or two

I, personally like the cheap idea...with fancy schmancy opening credits, and the rest is left up to someones imagination, no matter what it may be...getting cash for the rest of the film...or whatever I think this script has the most potential!

Sarah

[Luke]

I see Bryan Lynch says in the bio section of his site that after listing the 'Next Muppet Movie' :- "You will never see any of these. Ever. Never ever ever." Hmmmmmmmm

He has a message board on his site where he regularly hangs out - i say we go schmooze with him and find out more info !

[Chilly Down]

Luke, what's the URL for that site?

[Luke]

It's the same one as above - www.angrynakedpat.com - i was reading the forum bit and he hangs out there. I don't think it's their usual kinda subject (a lot of it is people swearing) but he might answer some stuff if it's put the right way - not sure how the others will react to Muppet fans.

[matleo]

I would suggets that of one of us is going to go and post it should only be like one or two of us...not like a bunch of suddenly hanging out over there. Also it should preferably be someone who is familiar with his other work and generally interested...any volunteers??? Anyone???


--Matt

[Luke]

Hey Matt,

Yeah you're right. I don't mind doing it, but you seem to know most so you'd probably be the better person. It's upto you.

[Thijs]

The Cheapest Muppet Movie ever sounds really great. Something completely different compared to the other movies.

[WiGgY]

I like the idea of "The Next Muppet Movie" or "The Muppet Movie 2". It would be like that Scooby Doo movie they show on Cartoon Network sometimes. Though, no musicals would be weird. But as long as they don't use songs as music beds like they did in MFS, it would be fine by me. Either original music or no music.