Using webcam for puppet monitor

[Melonpool]

Hi!

I auditioned in LA today for the Muppets and made it as far as working with the monitor before I was eliminated, leading me to believe that while my puppetry skills might be okay, my monitor skills need quite a bit of work.

Anyway, I was thinking it might be a relatively inexpensive set up to use an isight on my mac as a practice monitor ... maybe even doing a few chats this way for some real-time improv practice.

I was wondering if anyone had set up something like this, how well it worked (or if it even worked) and if there was a way to watch what you were broadcasting in real time.

Steve

[Puppet crazy]

I find it really hard to use a monitor too. I found it's easier to look at the puppet mainly, and
only use the monitor now and then to check you’re in the right spot. Mirrors are very easy to
use though. I think it’s the reverse image that is difficult to work with, so if you practice on
your cam make sure you don’t have the “mirror” setting or you will be cheating. Practising
on webcam could be quite fun though. Maybe people could put down there hotmail or yahoo
accounts here.

[practicecactus]

I've been trying to figure out how to make my tv a monitor with my camera.
I mean, I can connect it and make it work and stuff, thats the easy part, but it's reversed, which makes it hard to work off, becasue if you go left,on screen goes right.
I figure Television monitors are mirrored right?

I even tried using my playstation eye toy game, but the mirror stuff has effects (like ballons and stuff) which would look weird for taping purposes.

anyway, I know none of this isn't making any sense to anyone but me, so, I'll stop now.

[standay]

I figure Television monitors are mirrored right?...anyway, I know none of this isn't making any sense to anyone but me, so, I'll stop now.No, it makes sense. To do puppetry for TV you really need a reversed-scan monitor. That's where the image is just mirrored from what it normally is. The puppeteer(s) watch a program feed from the studio on that while performing.

Most monitors can be modified for this (my Dad called it "jeeping" a monitor). You have to have the TV's schematic and some electronics knowledge and skills to do the mod yourself, although I'll bet there's some old-school TV repairmen types out there who could do one for you. And there may even be a few models with this built in but you'd have to look and see.

I was surprised to read that they apparently make you use a non-reversed monitor for the auditions? That's just not how it used to be done but maybe they don't use reversed monitors anymore for some reason.

As for a webcam, I think the inherent digital delay in any computer based video setup would make it hard to use for this purpose.

Stan

[Blink]

I've been trying to figure out how to make my tv a monitor with my camera.
I mean, I can connect it and make it work and stuff, thats the easy part, but it's reversed, which makes it hard to work off, becasue if you go left,on screen goes right.
I figure Television monitors are mirrored right? In my expecience learning to use the standard monitor where the image in completely reversed (going left makes the puppet go right on the screen) is standard practice.

Every set I have been on has had this type of set up. I have learned from many professionals (some with Muppet performance experience) and this is the way they have all performed.

I think of it as, "Once you master the most difficult way of using the monitor, then other ways are easy to perform.". Which is to say if someone offers to mirror the image in my monitor rather that have it the standard reversed image then I have no worries either way.

People who only train on the "mirrored" type monitors will often have greater difficulty with a standard reversed image.

I say learn the difficult standard reversed technique and you will be more prepared as a television performer.

But this is simply my opinion.

[ravagefrackle]

I mean, I can connect it and make it work and stuff, thats the easy part, but it's reversed, which makes it hard to work off, becasue if you go left,on screen goes right.
anyway, I know none of this isn't making any sense to anyone but me, so, I'll stop now.


Just To Back Blink Up here, this is how all muppet are are worked on cam, never have i been on set when they would flip the image to be like a mirror,

the standard left goes right, and rigt goes left effect is the way evry single muppet production has been done since the very beging,

now why would you quite just because something is more challenging, ???you wont get far in life with that attitude.

[Melonpool]

My real preference is to learn how to do it without being mirrored. That's the whole point. I just want to spend about $100 on a cam for the computer and not $500 on a video camera. My question was really if a cam would meet my needs.

Steve

[Blink]

My real preference is to learn how to do it without being mirrored. That's the whole point. I just want to spend about $100 on a cam for the computer and not $500 on a video camera. My question was really if a cam would meet my needs.

SteveHi Steve,

If you just want an inexpensive way to practice, then why not just purchase an old used VHS camera (or dust off one you already have...or even borrow one from a friend/family member, etc.) and hook it up to an old computer monitor? That's what I did years ago when I started out and I just spent hours practicing in front of it.

I bought the video camera and the monitor for almost nothing at a second hand store. It wouldn't be something that you would want to use in a demo reel, but it would do the trick.

[Melonpool]

I think it was the ease of having it already set up and not taking up too much space that appealed to me. Also, I thought it'd be a pretty cool feature on my website if people could interact with the puppet once a week or something.

Having never had a webcam, I wasn't sure how easy this would be to set up. I guess my best option would be to borrow back my video camera from the friend that's had it almost constantly for the last two years. ;)

Steve

[Ryan]

I'm jumping in to say that monitor experience is necessary in this business. If you're not committed to learning how to work on the monitor, frankly, it's not likley you'll get a job in the profession. It takes years to master, and it needs to be automatic before you can perform really well. Invest in a video camera, it is
absolutley necessary. Lip synch to a song while watching a monitor and record it, then watch the playback to see what you need to improve on. It's the only way you can learn to do it.

[Melonpool]

Sigh...

I'm getting a little frustrated here. I ask a question and everyone answers an entirely different question. I know that monitor work is important. I have used them before and I have used them in the non-mirrored (Muppet) way. But I'm pretty rusty and would like to brush up and improve these skills.

In the years since I did the monitor work, however, I lent my camera to a friend who constantly borrows it back again everytime I need it. My thought was that it might be cheaper and easier for me to go out and buy a webcam and set up a makeshift monitor (especially since the Apple isights seem to have a very quick refresh rate), but before I shelled out $120, I wondered if anyone else had ever tried this and if it was even worth it.

I gather this anser is "no," considering everyone that has responded to this question has in fact answered the question "do I really need to use a monitor?"

Steve

[Blink]

Sigh...

I'm getting a little frustrated here. I ask a question and everyone answers an entirely different question. I know that monitor work is important. I have used them before and I have used them in the non-mirrored (Muppet) way. But I'm pretty rusty and would like to brush up and improve these skills.

In the years since I did the monitor work, however, I lent my camera to a friend who constantly borrows it back again everytime I need it. My thought was that it might be cheaper and easier for me to go out and buy a webcam and set up a makeshift monitor (especially since the Apple isights seem to have a very quick refresh rate), but before I shelled out $120, I wondered if anyone else had ever tried this and if it was even worth it.

I gather this anser is "no," considering everyone that has responded to this question has in fact answered the question "do I really need to use a monitor?"

SteveHi Steve,

I am sorry you are feeling frustrated. I am sure that was not anyone's intention.

I want to point out my first response was to "practicecactus", that is why I posted.

My second post was in response to your post about wanting something cost effective.

I never responded to your first point because I really don't have any experience with a webcam. So in short my answer to your first post is "no". I have never used this and I have no idea how effective it would be. As far as what I do know about cost effective options, I have already shared that information.

As for other people, I can not speak for them. I assume they were simply responding to other points that came up in this discussion. I actually think that there was some good information that came out of the posts so I thank you for starting the thred. I think what we have here is much better than a whole bunch of people posting and simply saying "No. I have never used a web cam".

Again I am sorry if I added to your frustration. But I thank you for starting the thred.

[Melonpool]

Thanks, blink!

I didn;t mean to come off as a little ***** in my posts... it wasn't my intention.

Truth be told, I'm thinking a little ahead of myself here. I need to work on my monitor work and I was thinking about getting an isight, so I was trying to kill two birds with one stone and see if anyone else had had any luck doing something like this.

After about the third post aboiut whether or not to use a monitor, I felt like my original question was left by the wayside. I agree -- the posts are more interesting the way it turned out, but it's not getting me any closer to my original question... ;)

Steve

[Ryan]

After about the third post aboiut whether or not to use a monitor, I felt like my original question was left by the wayside. I agree -- the posts are more interesting the way it turned out, but it's not getting me any closer to my original question... ;)

But your original question is pretty much the same as the one we've been talking about. There would be no difference from webcam and camcorder. They both show the mirrored image. Webcam will just give lower quality. So, yes, buy a webcam.

[standay]

the posts are more interesting the way it turned out, but it's not getting me any closer to my original question... ;)

SteveSteve, I think you'll find that the inherent digital delay in any computer-based video setup would make it hard to use for your intended purpose. All you could do is try it and see if the refresh rate is fast enough for you. If you can get hold of a normal video setup that will work for sure.

I'm surprised they don't use reverse scan monitors now, I guess I should have said 30 years ago at the public TV station I was at we always used a reversed monitor for the puppets. My guess is that by using a "normal" monitor all the time the advantage would be that you could go into any studio anywhere and be able to perform with their setup without taking a special monitor with you.

Stan

[practicecactus]

now why would you quit just because something is more challenging, ???you wont get far in life with that attitude.

That second line was necessary. I don't appreciate you making some snide little assumption about me, ok?

Secondly, I like to plan something out to be as effective as possible, It does not make sense to ME to do it the way "everyone else does it".
Its not a natural reflex to do something opposite.
I dont particualry care for the "this is the way the muppets have done it, so thats the way you have to do it" attitude.

Heaven forbid someone should try to do something different and easier to use.

[Muppetsdownunder]

Well the reversed monitor is something any tv puppeteer needs to learn and I was surprised when I did some basic monitor practice at the puppetry workshop earlier this year.

In answer to your question, I'm not an expert but I have tried to use a cheap webcam as a camera to do some very basic puppetry practic on and it sounds like a good idea and good to save money but the delay and quality was so annoying, you move the puppet and a second later it actually appeared on the screen, its very hard for lip syncing. As I said though, this was with a very cheap webcam which is now not working at all so it might be worth a try with a good webcam.

I've tried it with a digital camera plugged into a monitor in video mode and it works great, but a very primitive method still compared to a proper video camera.

[ravagefrackle]

That second line was necessary. I don't appreciate you making some snide little assumption about me, ok?

Secondly, I like to plan something out to be as effective as possible, It does not make sense to ME to do it the way "everyone else does it".
Its not a natural reflex to do something opposite.
I dont particualry care for the "this is the way the muppets have done it, so thats the way you have to do it" attitude.

Heaven forbid someone should try to do something different and easier to use.

DUDE CHILL OUT, i was making a snipey little comment , you stated that you were just gonna give up in your post, so i wrote back,

no yes thier maybe easier ways of doing something , but life in the world of TV production is rarely easy,

its not just the muppets whop produce shows this way, EVERY puppet show for tv does it this way, because it isnt worth the expense of going thru and changing it .
it isnt that hard a skill to master , and it but it does take time, sorry u thought i was being snipey, i thought i was trying to counter your IGIVE UP statement,

[DannyRWW]

A cheap way to practice with a monitor... I bought a 50 buck karoake cam that plugs into a vcr... I use it to prctice puppetry and so that the puppet team I direct can watch while they perform. I also use it as a standard video camera to review performances and practices.

[Buck-Beaver]

This may be of interest to those of you who want to set up and practice with monitors properly - Setting Up A Practice Monitor by Leo Brodie (http://home.earthlink.net/~lbrodie/extra/monitor.html).

Re: webcams, I think that's a great idea but buy the more expensive, 30fps models. The cheap ones are 15fps and very jerky.

Oh and just to back up what Blink, Ravagefrackle and others have already said the "mirrored" monitors are not standard in television. Anyone here aspiring to be a professional puppeteer who works in TV or film has to be able to use the reverse monitors. Not being able to use a reverse monitor in TV puppetry is sort of like trying to be a racecar driver and not being able to drive standard.

[practicecactus]

Alright I apologise for taking it the wrong way, I just felt like I was being singled out for having a different opinion.
And as for the giving up thing..I meant with that post..cause I figured I wasn't making sense..which clearly, I was right because we've gotten our wires crossed here.
P.S. Im not aiming to be a proffessional puppeteer , I just wanna stuff for fun, for myself first and foremost, I didn't think everyone would $#!+ on my idea this much.

[Fozzie Bear]

Steve, sorry the answer came pretty late on Saturday, but I think Mike had a good idea and will hopefully post it in this thread. Sounded like a good answer at the dinner anyhow.

And glad you made it to the dinner, Steve! Was fun seeing you and Mayberry out there.

[Whatever]

So if you use a mirror to practice with, is that the right effect or not? I'm confused now.

[Puppet crazy]

No the opposite of a mirror reflection. If that made sense.

[Muppetsdownunder]

It is confusing, but if im right about this, with a mirror we see a reversed image, and with a monitor we see a true image of what is seen by the audience, although when the monitor is facing you if you go left it moves to the right on the camera. I probably didnt make any sense at all.

[Buck-Beaver]

That's it exactly.

[FISH'N'WOLFE]

So if you use a mirror to practice with, is that the right effect or not? I'm confused now.
Yes, it is the right effect. Works swell in lieu of a camera and monitor setup. It's how Frank Oz honed his puppeteering skills in fact.

[Fozzie Bear]

Using a mirror will work if you look at the performance in another mirror.

Reason is that, on a monitor, your puppet will be doing things backwards!

When you turn the puppet's head to the left, on the monitor you see the head turn to your right (although, it's really looking to the left of the screen).

[MrsPepper]

Monitors are tricky. I'm not a puppeteer here, but I have a neat little story about monitors.
When I took a tour of NBC studios in NYC last may, I got to be the weather girl in a little mock broadcast that our tour group got to do. I had to read off of a teleprompter, and point to whichever sides of the coast when the teleprompter said to. However, I was standing in front of a green screen, and I could only see the map on a monitor! So I had to memorise which hand was going to do what (ie If I move my right hand, that would be the west coast). It was a little disorienting but alot of fun.

[erniebert1234ss]

This may be of interest to those of you who want to set up and practice with monitors properly - Setting Up A Practice Monitor by Leo Brodie (http://home.earthlink.net/~lbrodie/extra/monitor.html).

Re: webcams, I think that's a great idea but buy the more expensive, 30fps models. The cheap ones are 15fps and very jerky.

Oh and just to back up what Blink, Ravagefrackle and others have already said the "mirrored" monitors are not standard in television. Anyone here aspiring to be a professional puppeteer who works in TV or film has to be able to use the reverse monitors. Not being able to use a reverse monitor in TV puppetry is sort of like trying to be a racecar driver and not being able to drive standard.

Thanks Andrew! I had some serious misgivings about monitor work. I'll make more professional-looking puppets, then I can talk. I like the setup and I already have it in my word-processing program for future reference.

BJ