Goths, Punks, Freaks, and Muppets - Is it all Very Wrong? [Archive]

matleo

08-11-2002, 09:21 AM

I agre with Jes about not wanting to see the SS gang (or any of the Mupets) in sexual positions or with drug references. Please don't tarnish my childhood.

But I have to disagree with Cantus Rock. No, seeing them on some punk kids shoes or shirt doesn't bother me at all. I think mainly because there was a girl I went to high school with who was very gothic. REALLY gothic and she was viewed as kind of a freak and people snubbed her and whatnot, and spread rumors and said she was weird, but if you sat and talked to her, got to know her, she was really very friendly and also really quite smart. She had opinions on things and they were hers she wouldn't force 'em down your throat but if you got her talking she could explan why she believed in this or that and she usually had some good points. And she showed general real concern for people andthe world around her. She woudl talk abo things that were important to her, but she would also talkabou things thatwere important to you. It really wasn't about her looking for attention as most people thought. I always wonder where she is in life now cause she really was/is one of the most fascinating people I've ever known. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Amy now with a Kermit sticker on her black lunchbox or a pair of Gonzo socks at her ankles or soemthing. She's probably looking at it and wondering whatever happened to me.

Morale of the story: you can't judge a book by it's cover. it has very lttle to do with this discussion, but I always liked that story.

--Matt

scarecroe

08-11-2002, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Cantus Rock
Jim Henson made these characters with the intent of happiness and humor, and these wannabe-devil children embrace it. I think its degrading to the characters, and to Jim.How do you feel about Alice Cooper? Ozzy Osbourne? Both of these individuals are representative of similar angles in style as the goth references you've made. Both of them have also worked with the Muppets. What you have to remember is that we're talking about the entertainment world here. For the most part, a lot of the goth stuff is done for show. Shock factor. You don't think Richard Donner or William Friedkin, directors of The Omen and The Exorcist, respectively, endorse Satan do you? If you do, then Jim endorsed the horned one as well since the Alice Cooper episode of The Muppet Show depicted Alice working for him.

True, there are those extremists out there whose message really is further ground into making some kind of evil statement, but for the most part, they're just all about show.

I'm going to watch Buffy now :)

Gonzo

08-11-2002, 12:05 PM

I think it's great that these "troublesome kids" have some sort of soft spot for the Muppets, and have some sort of fond memories of them. Also, if you look at the people who actually shop at places like Hot Topic, it's a pretty healthy mix of the Goth kids and the frat boys, "normal" students, comic book geeks--I mean, if we place a limit on who can buy and love Muppet stuff, where's it gonna stop?

I'm glad it's providing an outlet for some new merchandise and providing visibility for the Muppets, who for so much of the last 15 years have been pretty much...underrepresented in the world of pop culture merchandise.

Quinnnnnnnn

EmmyMik

08-11-2002, 12:25 PM

My story is kind of similar to Matt's (matleo
Matt)...

You can't judge a book by it's cover. You can't judge Goths just because they're "Goth". When I was in high school, I became friends with a couple of people who were into the whole Goth scene (although that's not my cup of tea). But there weren't these "bad" people. They did a lot for the school (student government, SADD, that kind of thing). Last year (at the Senior awards breakfast), they were awarded scholarships for their community service (they helped out at nursing homes). While I was never close friends with them (like I said, the whole Goth thing was never my thing, so I began hanging out with people who have similar interests to mine... cartoons!). If anything, that was a learning experience.

Perhaps the point of my story is that if a Goth type person wears a Kermit shirt, maybe (I'm not saying always, there are some REAL weirdos out there) there is nothing sick and twisted behind it...

grail

08-11-2002, 02:54 PM

hmm...this thread got back on topic.

how'd that happen?

frogboy4

08-11-2002, 03:16 PM

I don't think I have ever seen drug paraphernalia with Sesame Street or Muppet Show characters on them but I'm sure there is some out there somewhere. It just isn't very visible and there are many shops in my area that have that kind of stuff in their store windows. If it's some punk kid with a Muppet lunchbox then I find the argument kind of silly, but if you are referring to a device to use narcotics then I completely understand your point. It certainly doesn't make me happy, but I just don't care that much. I don't see how Kids shouldn't be around such parts of town anyway or around people who would abuse substances. I'm kind of wondering what kind of merchandise is being targeted here. Seen lots of Scooby stuff of that sort but he is kind of promoted that way sometimes.

As for goths and punks - they're people too and some of the ones in my life have been the sweetest people I have ever met. I object to a mean person wearing a Kermit shirt!

Cantus Rock

08-11-2002, 03:20 PM

How do you feel about Alice Cooper? Ozzy Osbourne? Both of these individuals are representative of similar angles in style as the goth references you've made. Both of them have also worked with the Muppets. What you have to remember is that we're talking about the entertainment world here. For the most part, a lot of the goth stuff is done for show. Shock factor. You don't think Richard Donner or William Friedkin, directors of The Omen and The Exorcist, respectively, endorse Satan do you? If you do, then Jim endorsed the horned one as well since the Alice Cooper episode of The Muppet Show depicted Alice working for him.
Okay here is my take on Alice and Ozzy: Alice = good, Ozzy = Bad. But see, its not goths I have a problem with. They can do whatever they want. Its just when they take the innocence and turn it 360, theres my problem. Okay Alice Cooper. I think really he didn't believe a **** thing he was pushing during his career. He, like Marylin Manson, was just saying what he said for the shock value and the fan base. The man now plays golf at a country club and is a very nice person (my father met him, he said he was a sweet guy). Okay, Ozzy. He's just an idiot. Also, if you listen to his latest song, he also states he isn't anything he claimed to be in his famous years. "I'm not the Anti-Christ, or the Iron Man," are some of the lyrics. And with his new show the Osbournes, how could any sane person believe he's the devil?! Of course Richard Donner or William Friedkin don't endorse satan, but its a little different from the kids who really really REALLY do, which are the ones this topic is mostly about.

True, there are those extremists out there whose message really is further ground into making some kind of evil statement, but for the most part, they're just all about show
Yes, I totally agree. But I think the show is tarnishing to the reputation of the Muppets. I don't know how I'd feel if I was a normal average joe who kind of liked the Muppets, and saw some punk in a ripped Gonzo shirt. See what I mean? Now let me reply to all the other people who need them :D (No hard feelings to anyone. All the people with gothic friends, thats cool. I AM NOT AGAINST GOTH(ism?). I just don't like the use of the Muppets.)

-Matt

Cantus Rock

08-11-2002, 03:31 PM

Ya know, I think you guys were just lucky enough to find nice gothic people to hang with and talk to. The goth kids in my are are a bunch of scum. The lifestyle and the people in it turned a straight A student into a heroine addict (and he was my best friend regardless of how he dressed up until he took it too far). Now granted it was on his own free will that he became an addict, but that's what I'm talking about. Those are the kinds of kids I see sporting Electric Mayhem merch. Drop-out, crack bindging, hole-in-the-head punks wearing Electric Mayhem shirts!! So I respect that the gothic people you all knew were cool, but you've gotta see it from my point-of-view. I think that's whats been bugging me about this post that I couldn't put my finger on. Go to a mall. Talk to one of them. I bet ya they won't be the same as you remember your friends being. The book judging will continue until I can meet a freak who has half a brain in the head he was given.

Sorry about the rant, and I don't mean to offend any of my fellow Muppet fans. I'm trying to be very cautious not to.

-Matt

FellowWLover

08-11-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by grail
hmm...this thread got back on topic.

how'd that happen?

I'll take credit for that. This seemed like it was a sincerely posted thread that could evolve into a decent topic for discussion. I was interested to hear what people had to say, and not as interested in the pitch for goth Muppet figures. So sue me.

frogboy4

08-11-2002, 05:27 PM

i'd like to see janice in black lipstick!

radionate

08-11-2002, 05:31 PM

Janice in Black lipstick and leather would rock!!!

Dontcha think that only those people interested in figures should nix or support a goth line of muppets? Or what about a new wave line?

FellowWLover

08-11-2002, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by radionate
Dontcha think that only those people interested in figures should nix or support a goth line of muppets?

... and some people claim this forum has become nothing but figure drool and sophomoric prattle. Guess *they* were wrong afterall.

Janice & Mokey's Man

08-11-2002, 05:38 PM

You said "prattle". You almost never hear that word, and if I hear it, I immediately think of Ursula from TLM in her song:

"And after all dear, what is idle prattle for?!"

Not that it has to do with anything, but just thought I'd mention it.

And yay, I didn't have to substitue that dang letter one time in this post! :D

grail

08-11-2002, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by FellowWLover
I'll take credit for that. This seemed like it was a sincerely posted thread that could evolve into a decent topic for discussion. I was interested to hear what people had to say, and not as interested in the pitch for goth Muppet figures. So sue me. i wasn't complaining, and actually agree that it has potential. but it was 3 am, and we just kinda got going...

people DO know that i wasn't really suggesting Goth Muppet figures, right?

radionate

08-11-2002, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by FellowWLover

... and some people claim this forum has become nothing but figure drool and sophomoric prattle. Guess *they* were wrong afterall. *Who*?????

FellowWLover

08-11-2002, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Janice & Mokey's Man
You said "prattle". You almost never hear that word, and if I hear it, I immediately think of Ursula from TLM in her song:

"And after all dear, what is idle prattle for?!"

Not that it has to do with anything, but just thought I'd mention it.

And yay, I didn't have to substitue that dang letter one time in this post! :D

Glad you liked it.

frogboy4

08-11-2002, 06:08 PM

Okay - no goth Muppets (we were only kidding) but I could go for a Scooter repaint with a black leather jacket, an emblem on his T shirt and some different colored shoes. Maybe even a tint to his glasses. That could be cool for some sort of limited exclusive. Oh no...more figure talk. You'd think that would be out of my system. Geez!

Anyway, about the punk kids, goth kids and metal heads...peoples is peoples. Jackie always says that and it was in a Muppet film so it has to be true!;)

FellowWLover

08-11-2002, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by grail
i wasn't complaining, and actually agree that it has potential. but it was 3 am, and we just kinda got going...

people DO know that i wasn't really suggesting Goth Muppet figures, right?

Of course. To be honest, I also felt a little badly for the thread-starter in this case. It seems to be a "new" person, and since it was obviously a heartfelt topic for him/her, I didn't want to see it get dismissed and then dismantled within the first page.

Recently, a lot has been made of how "newbies" feel when they come to the forum and see "insider bickering". I think that it also should be noted that sometimes all the joking might be a little intimidating for newcomers. I can imagine that some people may be hesitant to start a discussion for fear that it may just turn into yet another running gag. In this case, I thought the thread had real potential, so I decided to help move it along.

Luke

08-11-2002, 06:15 PM

I've met a few Goth people who were very nice, they were about to be interviewed on live TV though and everybody is extremely nice in a pant wettingly nervous state when thats about to happen so maybe it wasn't entirely for real - no idea.

I don't really think the shirts and merchandise being at Hot Topic really signifies Henson selling making any effort to sell merchandise to the Goths - Hot Topic just tried turning themselves into a pop culture shop stocking other stuff like ALF, Thundercats and Transformers. It's probably just a sales thing because retro is so 'in'.

On a side note - why don't we just moved the whole forum into the action figures folder and be done with it ? ;-)

grail

08-11-2002, 06:19 PM

--Anyway, about the punk kids, goth kids and metal heads...peoples is peoples. Jackie always says that and it was in a Muppet film so it has to be true!--

gonna have to agree here. it's one of the reasons i like the internet. you actually get to talk to people, without the pre-conceived notion one gets from looking at them. like i never would have guessed that our own frogboy could ever have been a glam-goth kid. and i probably wouldn't have spoken to him right off if we were to suddenly find ourselves in a room together. i know a lot of people could probably say the same for me. i look like your typical comic book geek, but my shelves are lined with VOLUMES of literature, some physics books, and a copy of "The Selfish Gene" that i've read more times than i care to admit to. it's all about perception. you come into a place like MC, and the only perception is that everyone loves the Muppets.

radionate

08-11-2002, 06:26 PM

Doesn't everyone kinda go through some kind of a goth stage? I know I was hanging with goth kids for awhile, and still have friends who are semi-goth.

We are all who we are here at MC and that's the beauty of it. Go to the What do you look like thread, and you'd be surprised at what you see. Most people look nothing like you'd expect them too, and like Jamie said, "Peoples is Peoples".

grail

08-11-2002, 06:29 PM

there's a "what do you look like" thread?

frogboy4

08-11-2002, 06:59 PM

Yeah...I'm a former glam goth kid though. I never have subscribed much to any clique, as I like to remain an individual.

The long black and punk colored hair, the dark clothes, ripped fishnets, black lipstick and funky fingernail polish were all fun for a while and it really worked for me. But I found them to be off-putting to others.

One day I dyed my hair blond for a month as a joke and hopped back into my Levis and people seemed to be even nicer to me. Not to mention it helped my social life (wink, wink). And it's great only spending three minutes getting ready and not having to sleep on black pillowcases and only use black towels for fear of staining them with hair dye. Needless to say the change stuck!

It's sad how perceptions have to do with what you wear and how you look, but it happens all the time and none of us are immune. We all reference our own experiences and they can give us a rather limited view of something much bigger. I have to admit that I, of all people, look at my thirty-something punked-out teachers with a little less respect than I should. Don't know why that is. Maybe it's just the stereotypes of what a teacher is supposed to be that have been drilled into my head. I certainly would feel different about them in a different atmosphere.

Getting back on the topic (or maybe it's too late for that) the recent pairing of the Muppets and Weezer could be considered strange and in line with the very thing this thread is about. The band is known for their drug-referenced hits, "Hash Pipe" and "Dope Nose". I don't really object to it, but it opens an entirely different discussion.

FellowWLover

08-11-2002, 07:25 PM

the recent pairing of the Muppets and Weezer could be considered strange and in line with the very thing this thread is about. The band is known for their drug-referenced hits, "Hash Pipe" and "Dope Nose". I don't really object to it, but it opens an entirely different discussion.

Good point! I didn't think of that, but I am sure that it will have an affect on the "teen" market and their perceptions of Muppets. Although Weezer may be too mainstream for the Goth crowd. Perhaps we will see fewer Goth teens sporting Muppet garb after all.

beaker

08-11-2002, 08:03 PM

Well well well. Yeah Cory's back in some way, but not really.
To whoever started this thread...my thing is that the whole goth thing was so mid/late 90's. That should be your problem, people with a fashion fopah trying to set trip up in dis niznat! ^_^
No seriosuly, you remember when it was alternatively emo indie rock hip in the 90's to sport sesame stuff(or ravers with sesame backpacks?)

Youre argument is...well pretty un thoughtout. Hot topic is full of tired old fashion trends...rap rocker style, post pop punk, etc.
You do know the word is 'Hot topic', which means in one minute, 90% off the next. They sell whatever is hip, and currently have this big ol 80's nostalgia thing. Thats why youre seeing it there.

also your terms are foreign...there really is no 'goth'...virtually every kid has razor tattos, tribal piercings, and the flavour of the month metal band. If you mean goth in the painfully embarassing 'robert smith smoke a clove im so depressed marilyn manson' sense, then well thats gone the way of the macarena and skinny ties for the most part.

while I too think the idea of drugs are hip, anti social corporated backed eMpTyV style thing is lame...youre stereotyping is a bit old fashioned. Anyone who met me knows at Muppetfest I was sporting a jet black mohawk, pin/badges covered black jacker, weird shorts and boots. Of course now I dress like pottery barn had an orgy with hot topic, but I digress.

So about Hot Topic selling Muppet stuff...kind of sad what ya said, as I seriously dont remember seeing *any* Muppet products til last year. And no, they are targetted at any hip youth^0^

Gonzo

08-12-2002, 11:32 AM

My little brother has tatoos up and down both of his arms, wears a lot of black, some spikes, his hair's a different color each week....

And he LOVES the Muppets. He's got all of the Muppet figures, probably has more Muppet CDs than most of the people on this forum, and is just about as excited about new Muppet projects as I am. He's technically more Punk than Goth, but it is, as was said earlier, impossible to judge a book by it's cover. He's not a devil worshiper, he just wants to look different than all of the Gap/Old Navy/American Eagle clones out there. He still laughs, he still has a good time, he's still my brother. And it's fine that he likes the Muppets.

I, of all people, when I was a Mormon Missionary in Germany for two years, am the one who ended up buying some black t-shirts with "Terror Ernie and Bombin' Bert" on them--bootlegs with Ernie holding a Grenade and Bert in a bandana with an Uzi...although I know copyright violation is wrong, and I woudn't ever wear them around kids, I thought they were darn funny.

Quinnnnnnnnnn

FellowWLover

08-12-2002, 11:34 AM

Yeah Quinn, but we already know that you are *sick*...

Gonzo

08-12-2002, 11:37 AM

BTW,

about this becoming a forum about the figures--personally, this line of figures is the most-and-the-best Muppet Merchandise I've seen in the last twenty years or so, and I think it deserves quite a bit of attention. If it were a line of 20+ Muppet BOOKS, or SHIRTS, or DVDs, or KEYCHAINS....and the people responsible for producing them were actively involved with the message boards of the website, I guarantee they'd be getting this much attention too. When the Time-Life DVDs came out, they had dozens of threads, with new messages every day--I never read them, because I didn't have the money to devote to the sets, but I didn't have any problem with what other people were discussing.

If you have that much of an issue with what's being discussed, start an interesting discussion (like this one)!

Enough prattle from me.

Quinnnnnnnnnn

Luke

08-12-2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Gonzo
If you have that much of an issue with what's being discussed, start an interesting discussion (like this one)!

Well erm Quinn, that was the point of this one, but it kinda mutated into yet another figure thread. Now it's back on track - nuff said !

grail

08-12-2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Gonzo
when I was a Mormon Missionary in Germany for two yearsreally? that's pretty cool...i was raised LDS, but well...some things just don't stick. i still carry many of the sensibilities, but i havn't been in years...

CaptCrouton

08-12-2002, 03:47 PM

IMHO regarding the marriage of Hot Topic and Muppets,

1) Muppets aren't sacred cows. Look at old pics of the Muppet performers and they often look like burn outs. They were hippies, okay?

2) Muppet stuff is a nice change to Hot Topic and I would encourage any shift in the atmosphere of a store that I normally would have no reason to shop in.

3) I think Animal makes a great poster child for Goth and the like, as far as fashion and mentality. Beaker and Gonzo as well, except in self-inflicting-abuse sorta way.

4) Like it's been said, Muppets reveal a soft spot in the shocking exterior. For myself, looking for the positive I could think, "Hate the hair, the tattoos, the overexposed undies..." but I could honestly say, "Hey, I love your Muppet T-shirt!"

5) The felt need of Goths is attention. I can give attention in a positive way, and find common ground, in a Goth who likes the Muppets.

Hope nobody finds this post offensive. I guess, for me, when being alternative becomes popular and marketable, it really isn't alternative anymore, whatever your definition. It's just another cog in the Machine. Old Navy clones and their Hot Topic Polar Opposites are really blood brothers because they're both heavily influenced by the same trends. They're just protons and electrons toward that trend.

Me? I've got my own quarks.

beaker

08-12-2002, 08:48 PM

>>>Hope nobody finds this post offensive. I guess, for me, when being alternative becomes popular and marketable, it really isn't alternative anymore, whatever your definition. It's just another cog in the Machine. Old Navy clones and their Hot Topic Polar Opposites are really blood brothers because they're both heavily influenced by the same trends. They're just protons and electrons toward that trend.

Me? I've got my own quarks<<<

great post man! I think you said it pretty well. If someone has a problem with Hot Topic, they minus well have a problem with Pottery Barn, the Gap, J Crew, Abercrombie, and Saks 5th avenue.

Between the Muppets, ALF and Invader Zim, Hot Topic rules.

Traveling Matt

08-12-2002, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Matleo
Morale of the story: you can't judge a book by it's cover. it has very lttle to do with this discussion, but I always liked that story.
I've always like that saying, too.

For my opinion, I guess it's ok for goth kids to wear this stuff. It does seem a little weird that Henson would allow something like that, but as long as it's in the best interests of everyone, it seems fine.

- Billy :cool:

Luke

08-12-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by CaptCrouton
Muppets aren't sacred cows. Look at old pics of the Muppet performers and they often look like burn outs. They were hippies, okay?

Actually i've noticed that too quite a bit.

Gonzo

08-13-2002, 01:34 PM

Whenever I see those pictures of the undeniably Hippieesque Muppet performers with their arms up in the air with puppets on them, I always wonder how they smelled. Not a happy thought, but it's just what comes to mind.

Quinnnnnn

Natalie

08-21-2002, 01:26 PM

hey, i'm glad to see it! as a teenager myself, it's great to find new muppet merchandise more available in stores that i might actually be able to shop in! I've gotten a Fraggle Rock shirt from Hot Topic, a Miss Piggy Shirt from Gadzooks, and a Fozzie shirt from the catalog Alloy. My sis got some kermit shirts and underwear from Alloy too. I love it, but yeah, if the person isn't actually a muppet fan buying the merchandise, that is a little wrong.

Cantus Rock

08-21-2002, 02:10 PM

See Phillip! This is the post that doesn't go away! As long as there are teenagers on the boards, this post will never die! And everyone hates me! Well...maybe everyone doesn't hate me, but AAAAHHHH!!!!!! Make it stop!

Oh, and Ms. NGirl...I agree with you on the non-Muppet fans buying the stuff. That was basically what this post was about in the first place...goths who aren't really fans of the Muppets buying thier stuff to make a pop-culture statement.

-Matt

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 02:19 PM

In the big scheme of things why should we really care what others buy? There is just so much judgement - why can't we keep our eyes on ourselves and our own lives?

Cantus Rock

08-21-2002, 02:29 PM

Your right Jamie, we should. But human nature doesn't allow for it and I'm sure your aware of that. Whether subtly or blatently, we are always judging. And on issues people feel strongly about, verbal judgement most always comes out. Not to mention I wasn't trying to start a crusade or anything, I just wanted to have a civil debate about what people though. No harm in that, is there?

-Matt

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 02:38 PM

Nah, but it is kind of sad we have to judge a person because of the clothes that they wear or how many holes they have in their head. I always thought we lived in a more enlightened age than that. We're all guilty of judging others no matter how hard we try. This thread just seems to be seeking it out. Not that you don't have the right to do so.

I know - personally I'd rather see a punk kid wearing a Kermit shirt than a Starbucks chugging Gap kid, but neither really bothers me. The more Muppets the merrier! It really doesn't matter. Why can't we just share the love and shake our groove thang in the way we choose without being critiqued for being objectionable to someone who thinks a particular shirt is too good for us? :)

beaker

08-21-2002, 02:41 PM

>>>I know - personally I'd rather see a punk kid wearing a Kermit shirt than a Starbucks chugging Gap kid, but neither really bothers me. The more Muppets the merrier!<<<

As long as the punk takes a shower...then again the whole punk thing was so 80's. Hey Cantus, you sure youre only in fourth grade? Hmmm...

radionate

08-21-2002, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by frogboy4
I know - personally I'd rather see a punk kid wearing a Kermit shirt than a Starbucks chugging Gap kid, but neither really bothers me. (Hides his Brownie Frappachino and scrunches down so Jamie doesn't see his Gap shirt) "Oh hey Jamie, what's up?":rolleyes:

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 02:45 PM

Punk is back - so is metal and grunge. It's a free-for-all these days in fashion and music (unless you watch TRL, of course). That's really the shape of the decade. However you happen to feel - that's whats going on in the circles I'm in at least. I think it's fantastic. :)

beaker

08-21-2002, 02:53 PM

>>>Punk is back - so is metal and grunge. It's a free-for-all these days in fashion and music (unless you watch TRL, of course). That's really the shape of the decade. However you happen to feel - that's whats going on in the circles I'm in at least. I think it's fantastic<<<

Thats major sad, following long and dead trends just because eMpTyV and corporate radio and mall shops tell you its cool.
Its hard to take seriously all the slipknot limp bizkit backward baseball cap wearing rap-metal kids these days. What is this, 1998? 99% of girls I see dress like its 1976 with those pants and tops. sheesh. Back in the 90's in high school and college I dressed pretty out there, and hated society and blah blah blah.

And sadly yeah...but what is shaping this decade? The 70's was disco funk and rock in roll...the 80's was new wave skinny ties regan arcades and cheeseburgers. the 90's was grunge, rap metal goatees and politically correct. what the heck is the 2000's?
seems like its still 1998 minus the Clinton scandals.

GWGumby

08-21-2002, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by beaker
what the heck is the 2000's?
seems like its still 1998 minus the Clinton scandals. Yeah, and where are those darn flying cars already?!

beaker

08-21-2002, 03:23 PM

>>>Yeah, and where are those darn flying cars already<<<

exactly! No, you know what it feels like still? The 90's.
Still the same confused youth and fashions, same republican lets kill people rhetoric on tv...yet same politicall correct bs as well.
Heck even a lot of the movies seem to be the same mindless action stuff. 1999 looked like to be a brave new year to a new era with advances in technology, brave new movies and ideas, etc...then when Y2K hit boom...the same ol 90's crud. So what will define this era? Not a few months after the devestating cherry on the top of last year(What had to be the worst year in decades) people are still back to their cynical angsty ways. One look at the news and life around shows its business as usual...ie the dogma and quagmire that is the 90s...a virtual heck that noone can get out of for now.

And you know what's sad? The last turn of the century it was a brave futurist perfect anything is possible great striders era...
the era of flight, cinema, etc...everything being invented, the sky was th elimit. This turn of the centruy? The era of the blah blah, bling bling, and the ho hum.

...and yeah, where are those flying cars?

kansasteen14

08-21-2002, 03:25 PM

um why cant non muppet fans buy muppet products.I think it's really stupid saying that,I mean what do ya want for everyone to show their MC or Toughpigs I.D. to buy muppet merchandise,thats just retarded

grail

08-21-2002, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by beaker
what the heck is the 2000's?
seems like its still 1998 minus the Clinton scandals.

not to be rude, but so what?

if someone wants to wear crap from the 70's then let 'em. if that's what they're comfortable with then more power to them.

i don't know about you, but about half my "wardrobe" is comic book style shirts. it's not what is popular but it's what i like, and i enjoy wearing them whenever possible. everyone has their version of the "comic book shirt". something that other people wonder how they could wear it in public. but since when did it fall to us to tell people what they can and cannot wear? and when did the fact that it's popularity died in the early 80's mean that something could never be worn again?

it seems to me that the real "look" of 2000+ has been the look of self-expression. a real "i don't care what you're into or why you're into it, but you are so i might as well just get over my own pre-conceptions and deal with it like an adult" kind of thing.

i mean, where did it become my place to tell other people that they're wrong? it's just clothes. would you rather we all became nudists...because even then everyone'd still look different.

just a thought...

Natalie

08-21-2002, 03:35 PM

hey, i don't really know what to think, whether this is good or bad or whatever. I guess i don't care who wears muppet stuff or not, if you want to, go ahead. I usually don't dress like that, I wear all Wet Seal (i work there) but of course i need to let my other personalities show once in a while, so i'll wear muppet stuff. And as for the 2000's, i think in a few years it'll be more defined.

beaker

08-21-2002, 03:35 PM

>>>it seems to me that the real "look" of 2000+ has been the look of self-expression. a real "i don't care what you're into or why you're into it, but you are so i might as well just get over my own pre-conceptions and deal with it like an adult" kind of thing<<<

Um, or more correctly..."Faux" self expression, meaning people wearing shirts stores, mtv, and the radio and trends tell them is cool. Thats why the once underground anime Dragon Ball Z is worn by every hip urban kid in the mall.

Heck yeah, ya sound like me...100% of the shirts i wear are black hobby related, or 'comic' book shirts(ie: from hot topic, online or comic shops) they would include my fave bands, and lots of invader zim/anime/video games/muppet shirts. I wear 100% of the time shorts and a black tshirt with one of the above.

But when 99.9% of girls wear shirts that say '****', 'angel', 'innocent', tongue rings, circa 1976 jeans...and all the guys wear abercrombie, have razor wire tattoos around their arms...its a sad state of affairs.

As far as 70's retro chic, I dont have to explain why that just looks bad. The Muppets and the advent of the video game were probably the only cool thing from that wrestched era...as I cant recall a time when fashion looked so hideous. I rather see 80's fashion back in...heck 1680's Victorian fashion than 1970's!!!

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 03:38 PM

I think some of you are going way overboard. There are many things to choose from these days - no clear style. Anything goes and nothing's off limits. That's the point. It isn't that anything is really a retread - it's about individuality and personal taste.

Can't stand all this judgment. It really is ludicrous. Do what you want. Who the heck cares who wears what and why? What makes everyone a self-appointed critic of other people's personal style these days? Now that's truly what is retro in these times. The only people dictating what others should wear or not seem to be on this thread. LOL!
:D

beaker

08-21-2002, 03:54 PM

>>>The only people dictating what others should wear or not seem to be on this thread. LOL!<<<

Um, well in real life...it would be corporatations and MTV and magazines dictating what people read. Were talking about a culture we live in where reality shows and American Idol are
the new evangelical must see tv.

Its not judgement, its seeing wiht clarity how everything is do devoid of art or true individuality. Then again, for the average sheep minded young person, Hot Topic conveinently packages 'indviduality' for $69.99 MSRP...a punk patch ridden army coat and zipper plaid suspender hanging pants.

These days Jamie, 'individuality' is prepackaged and more akin to 'faux individuality'.

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 04:08 PM

You are too young to be that cynical. I think you're looking to hard for things to dislike. I hang out with all sorts of people and there are "phonies" in every sort of group. I just don’t get all Holden Caulfield on it. Live and let be - there's no need to judge others for the clothing they wear and it's presumptuous to assume an individual's motives. We really don't know.

beaker

08-21-2002, 04:18 PM

>>>I just don’t get all Holden Caulfield on it. Live and let be - there's no need to judge others for the clothing they wear and it's presumptuous to assume an individual's motives. We really don't know<<<

Nice Salinger reference there...well Jamie, sometimes a misantrhopic view of things is needed. From what you say, you really have no comprehension of how lame some of these trends are?

Anyways, perhaps it's because I hardly have any people I hang out with...the few people I hang out with actually *get* my sense of strange 3am humour, so that tells you how irreverently anti social in climate my views about pop life in America can be.

But still, it doesnt take a doctorate in hip youth trends to realize how sad everything is. Ack, but then again you live in sf...where everybody is on a 'im an individual!' green haired alterna kick.
Hey I go there a lot...I know how the good will thrift shops in sf
are more like trendy mall stores, and where the Gap waering people are considered the freaks.

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 04:29 PM

<<Hey I go there a lot...I know how the good will thrift shops in sf are more like trendy mall stores, and where the Gap waering people are considered the freaks.>>

That is so not true. The Gap is actually big here - Gap Corporate has their headquarters here and I know people who totally live that fad. They get some ribbing from me just as my overly tattooed friends to, but it really is anything goes. I think you may have a distorted view. Just as much Gap folks and Punk kids. I think you are looking too far from the outside on this. I used to be kind of like that when I was a teenager, but I dropped al that and got into the game. You set your own rules. I'm a T-shirt and jeans sort of guy, but I don't mind others. Sometimes it does seem that the non-conformists are all alike! LOL! It also seems that the ones judging them are too, but who are we to judge the minds and hearts of others?

beaker

08-21-2002, 04:38 PM

>>>Sometimes it does seem that the non-conformists are all alike! LOL! It also seems that the ones judging them are too, but who are we to judge the minds and hearts of others?<<<

Well sf is different tho, way different than most of California and the US...I mean the thrift sotres really are like high priced trendy mall stores, and where else will you see huge billboards that advertise all kinds of inuendo and various ill begotten stuff.

Now then, distorted view? And the whole judgement thing...goodness. Listen, for years Ive gone to some of the most freak ridden concerts and clubs in sf! I go for the music, but if ya think youre friends are eclectic or out there dress wise...you go to the DNA Lounge on Harrison on a Friday night and tell me it doesnt make your pals look like corporate Gap patrons;)

But...the way I see this new 'individualism'(ie: the loop earrings and piercings all over, the tattooes, the hair, etc) is its become to the point where its anti individual, and defeats the whole purpose. ITs become the new mainstream, in where whats the point? Its almost more individualitic to not get piercings and tattoes and crazy hairstyles. Ive been going to sf all my life, and have enjoyed seeing how art and fashion and thing shave changed...though some things in sf never change(ie: crusty punk youth pan handling ya for some change)

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 04:54 PM

I tend agree with some of what you said but who the heck are any of us to judge? I don't understand what going to DNA Lounge (Hole in the Wall, Reform School or Mass for that matter) has to do with not judging others, but go for it. I'm more of an Uncle Berts sort myself. Like to keep it simple these days.

I hang with all sorts of people - even you are trying it box my friends and me without knowing us. Just plain silly. From Goths and punks to skaters and Gap clad folks - I hang out with them all and there really is little difference between any of them. The only prejudice I have is against the negative sort. Mean people suck.

MuppetQuilter

08-21-2002, 08:03 PM

Sorry about this, but I am a sociologist:

Decades do not take shape in the first two years. Find a high school year book from 1982 and it will look like the 70s. What we know as the 60s didn't really get started until about '64. The 90s are just coming to an end. So, no, this decade does not have a cohesive, identifiable fashion or political identity (not that any decade is half as cohesive as we like to think it was) but give it time. In ten years we will have no problem labeling this decade.

People cannot all be original all the time. Most of us buy mass produced clothing, so we're guranteed to have others dress like we do. Nothing wrong with that. There have always been conventions and rules surrounding fashion. Yes, the fashion industry-- particularly when aimed at teens and young adults-- is ruled by MTV and movies and yes that is limiting and annoying sometimes. But the 80s weren't exactly a time of free expression. Preps had fits about whether the pennys in their loafers were right side up or upside down (anyone wana talk about trivial fashion rules?!) and the punk thing was a total rip off of one side of the late 70s British rock scene. You think middle class suburban kids turned to punk for the same reasons it came out of England ten years earlier?

Yes, we all make judgements. But we do have control over what we do with them and how we deal with them. Humans are capable of growth and change. Most of us go through a bit of a Holden Caulfield stage. Nothing wrong with that. But hopefully we move past it. Holden wasn't exactly the happiest guy around, as I recall.

What I am trying to say is, we should all just chill out. I don't think anyone is mad at anyone. I don't think this thread is out of hand. I do think, if we want the Muppets to be more visible, we have to expect that some people will do stuff with Muppet merchandise that we might not like. That's there right. Just as we have the right to not like it. But don't write off a generation because it hasn't found its voice, hasn't found causes to be passionate about, hasn't had time to figure out who they are. They'll get there, but they have to make some pretty awful fashion choices first (anyone here over the age of 25 not embarassed about something they wore in their teens?).

Traveling Matt

08-21-2002, 08:08 PM

Right on, Annika.

The traditions of decades (I've noticed) take quite a number of years to gain a definition.

- Billy :cool:

Cantus Rock

08-21-2002, 09:47 PM

Ugh, leave it to the sociologist to kill the mood of a thread...(:) hehe, I kid..)

You make some very excellent points Ms. Quilter. Its good we have insight like yours here. :)

-Matt

frogboy4

08-21-2002, 11:11 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself, Annika. When one slams the style of another arguments are bound to happen, but its good to keep things in perspective. There are cool people and unsavory ones in every type of dress - that's why it's not only difficult to judge someone by how they look, but counterproductive. It just kicks butt that there’s Muppet stuff out there at all!

beaker

08-22-2002, 02:47 PM

Holy cow! How could ya not love this woman's writing style???
Annika, thats got to be one heck of an articulated peice on decade's fashion. I forgot decades dont get a identity til halfway in...heck ya even make meantion of Catcher in the Rye and late 70's UK punk fashion retread. Not bad.

And once again Jamie comes away from one of my posts with a totally different interpretation. First you thought that I didnt like signs because there wasnt enough effects(I thought they showed too much alien) and now...

>>>I hang with all sorts of people - even you are trying it box my friends and me without knowing us. Just plain silly. From Goths and punks to skaters and Gap clad folks - I hang out with them all and there really is little difference between any of them. The only prejudice I have is against the negative sort. Mean people suck. <<<

I never said one thing about how they are...I was just commenting that no matter how 'inidividualistic' one thinks they are, they really arent. There are four basic alterna dress styles in sf and all around here. Punk, goth, 50's(ie: rockabilly, betty paige, swing, you know the look), and emo/indie(ie: nerdish looking on purpose, atari shirts, weezer, etc) None of which are original or new. In fact, if ya look at them they all harken back to something very old. Punk(late 70's uk) Goth(80's uk) 50's(well, 1950's), and the whole emo/indie kid thing is very early 90's. Course there's when whole raver thing which I wont go into.

>>>When one slams the style of another arguments are bound to happen, but its good to keep things in perspective. There are cool people and unsavory ones in every type of dress - that's why it's not only difficult to judge someone by how they look, but counterproductive. It just kicks butt that there’s Muppet stuff out there at all!<<<

Yeah, its great theres Muppet stuff everywhere...sadly mostly just the main 5, but good nonetheless.

All I was saying is that people who dress slightly odd or genre as stated above, arent as original as theyd like to think, thus defeating the whole original thing. I cant tell ya how tired the whole tattoo and piercing thing is.

frogboy4

08-22-2002, 03:03 PM

No misunderstanding here. Sounds like you are generalizing and putting people in boxes that you do not personally know because of some arbitrary criteria you have cooked up. It seems that you care way too much what other people are doing. If you think tattoos are tired - don't get one. It's as simple as that. But to judge the motivations of others is incredibly presumptuous and often incorrect. Who are any of us to judge what constitutes an individual? Just a meaningless waste of time and most of those who are being judged probably don’t give a flip, so really why should I? LOL!. Not debating the point with you further, it really is silly.

beaker

08-22-2002, 03:27 PM

>>>Not debating the point with you further, it really is silly<<<

well, as seeing as ye always have to have the last word(judging from the action figure threads)...^_^

>>>Sounds like you are generalizing and putting people in boxes that you do not personally know because of some arbitrary criteria you have cooked up. It seems that you care way too much what other people are doing<<<

Whoah frogboy meister...back dat mouse up and click to the original post I made. I really dont think you got any of what I was saying. You seem to think I was making a *personal* judgement call on people who dress out there...Heck even I dress quite out there(not as much as I used to) But not to my surprise, you again mistake what I said. I just had one argument...you said people dress offbeat for individuality, when I pointed out its almost like a parody of itself.

Well, at least Annika got what I was saying. And back to the original original post...Hot Topic, Banana Republic, sharper Image, Chuck E Cheese...its good to see the Muppet stuff abound for the first time in a decade.

MuppetQuilter

08-22-2002, 06:51 PM

The swing thing comes from the 40s, not the 50s. (Sorry, just a point of order there.) Really, it has its roots in the Jazz Age with the flappers.

Wana talk about how the Punk scene in the 70s was really a revisioning (and a very successful one) of the 50s rock look? They took the leather jackets, jeans, boots, and slicked hair to a whole new level and turned it on its head. But that's how evolution works-- we take the old, twist it around, and make it new again (or at least try to make it new again).

And the big hair, glam rock thing in the 80s? That goes back to big hair in the 50s. But we can keep going back with glam rock-- as Sam the Eagle once learned the hard way-- all the way to powdered wigs and silk stockings. :p

Anyway, Beaker, glad you enjoyed my post. Good to know those college loans weren't a total waste.

beaker

08-22-2002, 07:17 PM

>>>as Sam the Eagle once learned the hard way-- all the way to powdered wigs and silk stockings. <<<

Personally I think the 1670's Victorian fashion is way cooler than the 1970's fashion a lot of people seem to be stuck on. I say bring on the foppish powdered wigs and austentatious coats!

Anyway, Beaker, glad you enjoyed my post. Good to know those college loans weren't a total waste<<<

hehe, very good post indeed!

And for those who want an introductory to punk 101 uk style, rent the Sex Pistols documentary the Filth and the Fury.

MuppetQuilter

08-22-2002, 08:10 PM

Actually, the Victorian period refers to the reign of Queen Victoria, 1855-1901. In the US, the Victorian period is commonly thought of as post Civil War to about 1910.

the 1670s would fall in the Restoration period in England, I think. It's the colonial period in America. No idea about the rest of the world.

FellowWLover

08-22-2002, 08:59 PM

Alright, alright, alright.... interested in making a dent in goth fashion? Go to www.gothornot.com and place your votes. I'll warn ya though, so far I have yet to see one Muppet shirt!

Cantus Rock

08-22-2002, 09:02 PM

Hehehe, thanks for the link man. :)

-Matt

frogboy4

08-22-2002, 09:05 PM

OMG I love that site. How funny. Some definitely ungoth people mixed in there.

FellowWLover

08-22-2002, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by frogboy4
Some definitely ungoth people mixed in there.

Now, now, we wouldn't want to *judge* them by their appearances... they might be really *goth* at heart. LOL! ;)

frogboy4

08-22-2002, 09:12 PM

Now that’s just silly. Not judging - some of those people are definitely put in there as humor. A buxom blond babe in a white tank top and sky blue eye shadow is not really considered Goth though she is certainly working the look she's got. (I can just hear Luke surfing over there right now)

FellowWLover

08-22-2002, 09:14 PM

Jeez Jamie... take a joke, would ya? Ha, ha, (easy now), ha, (see how it goes?), ha, ha, ha... (and so on).:p

frogboy4

08-22-2002, 09:27 PM

I took it as that...just wanted to make it clear. If you had the day I've been through you'd dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s too. Sigh.

Anyway, it was so funny to see a reflection of how I used to dress. Well, kinda. More glam-Goth really (just slightly different). . Geez, just remembering how much it costs to maintain a look. I admire those with that sort of dedication. Lucky I'm a t-shirt and jeans guy.

Cantus Rock

08-22-2002, 09:30 PM

For some reason every picture is just the logo. That sucks so badly, I think gothic girls are so attractive (when they have brains in their heads). I guess that just further proves I don't hate goths. :D

-Matt

FellowWLover

08-22-2002, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Cantus Rock
I think gothic girls are so attractive

Psst, Matt... you can choose (from the drop-down box) to show you *just* the girls. If that helps.... :p

Cantus Rock

08-22-2002, 09:36 PM

Hehe, yes I saw that...except its hard to tell which are girls and which are boys when all i see is the same picture over and over (the sites logo) hehe

-Matt

FellowWLover

08-22-2002, 09:38 PM

Hmm... that is so weird. I wonder why you can't see the photos. I think perhaps the site administrator has read your first post here and banned you, ya little goth-hater you! ;)

Cantus Rock

08-22-2002, 09:41 PM

LoL...there's an underground network of gothic terrorists waiting to get the word to take me out..THERE ARE NO FAIR TRIALS IN GOTHLAND!! (or Freak City, as Floyd would say :D)

-Matt

frogboy4

08-22-2002, 09:54 PM

I think they are too busy fixing their eyeliner to ban anybody, but I could be wrong. Just building on my personal experience.

beaker

08-23-2002, 01:56 PM

>>>Not judging - some of those people are definitely put in there as humor. A buxom blond babe in a white tank top and sky blue eye shadow is not really considered Goth though she is certainly working the look she's got<<<

Hey, that sounds like a personal judgement call to me mister!;) You dont know, she might be really into Joy Division, Bauhuas,
Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, Misfits, Bowie and clove ciggarettes!

*cory, who finds the whole goth thing about as timely as the macarena*

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 02:56 PM

Eck...I hated the macarena. And since everyone down here was doing it, I think my head was going to explode. Luckily I wasn't that old at the peak of its popularity, so I didn't have too much trouble with it. :)

-Matt

ClubCreatures

08-23-2002, 03:14 PM

What's wrong is judging someone on how they look or how they choose to look.

It's amazing that a fan of Jim Henson could have anything against any culture or subculture.

Freaks LOVE Jim Henson. Why? Jim Henson clearly stood for inclusion of all people, and 60's themes of peace and love of ALL living things run through all his work.

Muppets ripped on other muppets for being weird or different, but there was love underneath.

It's funny all I can think of when I read things like Alice = Good, Ozzy = Bad or "you must have just run into some good goths" is Sam the Eagle.
Jim Henson mocked this type of attitude by creating a judgmental character who called everyone else "weirdos" for everything that was "unamerican."

Jim Henson had a dark, gothic side that he explored in Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal. Were these Satanic films?

Silly. Really silly.

Here are a few sites of EXTREME muppet fans
Call us freaks, goths, punks or whatever... We're all professionals, with very successful careers, we're not Satanists and we're not Heroin addicts...

Zazoo & Satori : http://www.theclubcreatures.com
by day we're very successful Ad guys, by night, nightclub personalities known worldwide

Jojo - Hairstylist, Makeup Artist, Dollmaker. Learned his dollmaking from Greer Lankton, who did a stint with Henson studios. She sewed all the feathers on the original Big Bird.

Geoffrey Mac - http://www.geoffreymac.com - Makes a very good living selling freaky clothes to freaky people.

We all cite Jim Henson as one of our biggest influences and heros. Now, because we sometimes look weird or do things that you don't like to do, should we not have the right to buy Jim Henson memorabilia, or wear muppets on our clothing?

Silly, Very Silly.

See you at Muppetfest '03

XXXOOO
Satori:p

ClubCreatures

08-23-2002, 03:22 PM

hmm...
couldn't edit to add this...

forgot Jojo's url: http://jojochicago.com/

XXXOOO
Satori

frogboy4

08-23-2002, 03:25 PM

Welcome to the board. Interesting site too.

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 03:25 PM

GOD ******!!! This post should be a dead issue!

NO MORE POSTING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!

This post should be at the bottom of the lake by now, but yet, its still here! NO MORE!

Just stop, everyone. No more debating on this subject!!

-Matt

beaker

08-23-2002, 03:33 PM

>>>It's amazing that a fan of Jim Henson could have anything against any culture or subculture<<<

true. Heck, I was the 'freakiest' looking person dress wise at last year's muppetfest(standing next to Sweetums I think I fit right in) and yet I felt right at home. Im hoping to see more fellow freaky dressers next year!

kansasteen14

08-23-2002, 03:35 PM

you really need to stop whining.you started this topic and should be able to deal with what's written.you should have thought about fi you were able to handle the replies and I believe people can post if they want you cant close this topic so STOP YOUR WHINING and be able to deal with what people say.

Natalie

08-23-2002, 03:35 PM

yeah, I think we're all one weird group, muppets are weird. but yeah Matt, i agree this shouldn't go on much longer, it's already been a long debate

beaker

08-23-2002, 03:36 PM

Hey interesting site...the index page reminded me of a futuristic Devo outfit;) Its interesting there is still a 'club kid' scene, despite the kiddy raver thing taking over...perhaps its an east coast thing. Last time the club thing was in the news it was usually on Jenny Jones or in that Party Monster documentary.

Anyways, good to see such dresswear creativity!

beaker

08-23-2002, 03:39 PM

>>>yeah, I think we're all one weird group, muppets are weird. but yeah Matt, i agree this shouldn't go on much longer, it's already been a long debate<<<

why? Its interesting, and its one of the few serious threads that didnt get all muffin'd up.

FellowWLover

08-23-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Cantus Rock
GOD ******!!! This post should be a dead issue!

NO MORE POSTING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!

This post should be at the bottom of the lake by now, but yet, its still here! NO MORE!

Just stop, everyone. No more debating on this subject!!

-Matt

Sorry but NO WAY! *You* brought it up, now *you* have to reap the returns, and NO, *you* can't just tell us all to stop talking about it because *you* are embarrassed now. Geesh!

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by kansasteen14
you really need to stop whining.you started this topic and should be able to deal with what's written.you should have thought about fi you were able to handle the replies and I believe people can post if they want you cant close this topic so STOP YOUR WHINING and be able to deal with what people say.
I was too harsh in this message, and I apologize to Kansasteen if she read it and was offended.

-Matt

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 03:46 PM

Ya know what, Fine, everyone fine. Go ahead, continue this stupid debate. I don't care. In fact, why doesn't everyone just jump on me for starting it. Yes, I did start it, and when I try to bring closure to it, people critisize it. I am done with this thread, and if you'd like to further keep this little festival of opinions up, be my guest.

-Matt

Lu775

08-23-2002, 03:48 PM

Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean.

Better? Every one feeling a little more chilled out?

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 03:52 PM

Wow...Lu, that really works. Lu: The MCForum guru of thought theropy. :)

-Matt

ClubCreatures

08-23-2002, 03:58 PM

Wow.

Crazy ACTIVE community here!

Um, yeah. Karma. You start it. It comes full circle. You cope. :) Happens to the best of us.

Thanks for the feedback! (Love DEVO)

Hmm.. There really isn't a "clubkid" scene anymore. It died in '96. There are still some creative people out there in the club scene though.

Funny you mention "Party Monster" our costumes are being featured in the feature film version. With Macaulay Culkin, Seth Green, Chloe Sevigny, Natasha Lyonne, Dylan McDermott, Lucy Lui, Wilson Cruz, John Stamos, Diana Scarwid, Daniel Franzese and Marilyn Manson. We were also extras on set for a couple of days. Fun experience.

I've been lurking on the boards for a while. Have been coming back more often to check on Action Figure news. SO LOVED Series 1. Can't wait to get the whole Electric Mayhem. esp. Janis.

XXXOOO
Satori

frogboy4

08-23-2002, 03:58 PM

Um...I need a hug!:p

It's a healthy debate. I really think it's been blown out of proportion (including myself in the equation).

Sometimes whimsical opinions appear to be absolutes when they are intended to be humorous. All this talk makes me want to dye my hair black and rummage through the closet for my old clothes. Watch out!

beaker

08-23-2002, 04:04 PM

Thanks for the feedback! (Love DEVO)<<<

Oh yeah, Im big on the nerd pop ala devo, kraftwerk, s.p.o.c.k.

Hmm.. There really isn't a "clubkid" scene anymore. It died in '96. There are still some creative people out there in the club scene though<<<

Yeah there were a number of various NYC club scenes I thought were interesting. Some of it got negative attention like on day time talk shows and documentaries. I think some may have seen club kids as some weird mix of drug culture and Brooklyn drag queen vogue ball thing. East coast scenes though have always been fascinating, its where hip hop and the American rave culture and new wave got started.(well detroit was also the US rave birthplace) I miss seeing that really creative 'out there' club fashion...now its all big pants and goofy gloves. Hey, do you remember reading Mondo 2000? Thats where I first saw creative cyber culture outfits.

>>>Funny you mention "Party Monster" our costumes are being featured in the feature film version. With Macaulay Culkin, Seth Green, Chloe Sevigny, Natasha Lyonne, Dylan McDermott, Lucy Lui, Wilson Cruz, John Stamos, Diana Scarwid, Daniel Franzese and Marilyn Manson. We were also extras on set for a couple of days. Fun experience. <<<

I saw a peice with Marilyn Manson and the return of Culkin on that movie. So you were extras on the set and had some of your creations featured? Dang thats cool!

I've been lurking on the boards for a while. Have been coming back more often to check on Action Figure news. SO LOVED Series 2. Can't wait to get the whole Electric Mayhem. esp. Janis.<<<

Well welcome aboard! Yeah, the action figure news is really taking off. The Muppets are taking over! hehe
(just wait til next year) ^_^

beaker

08-23-2002, 04:07 PM

>>>Sometimes whimsical opinions appear to be absolutes when they are intended to be humorous. All this talk makes me want to dye my hair black and rummage through the closet for my old clothes. Watch out!<<<

Yeah, now I wanna put on my custom cyberpunk jacket with a gillion pins on it and get my mohawk haircut again;)
Oh Jamie, just for the record if it helps...the Beaker MC button you designed has been prominently featured on my jacket since December!

ClubCreatures

08-23-2002, 04:23 PM

Yeah, we're really proud of the movie thing :)

Our dream jobs:

Satori - Creatureshop employee :)
Zazoo - Writer for Henson

Actually Zazoo's 9-5 side -- Christopher, is a copywriter. He's VERY influenced my muppet style skits. (Think Sam & Friends or Henson's LaChoy stuff)

His radio spots are online here: http://www.conceptualcopywriter.com

You'll notice that he's got talking food and everything. He's just won 7 "Silver Microphones" for his most Henson inspired Frisch's Big Boy spots :)

-----------
About the NYC scene... People take things too far, and it went too far. Then the local government cracked down. That's why that scene died.
More Karma in action.

The rave thing's gone too far now too, and the federal government is getting ready to crack down on that...

----------
Yea! Have you been getting into this new "Electroclash" a return to the early, early 80's style electronic? Check out "Miss Kitten and The Hacker" if you get a chance. You'll love 'em.

Happy to be aboard. Muppet people are the best people. Not to judge non-muppet people. LOL

XXXOOO
Satori

beaker

08-23-2002, 04:30 PM

>>>Actually Zazoo's 9-5 side -- Christopher, is a copywriter. He's VERY influenced my muppet style skits. (Think Sam & Friends or Henson's LaChoy stuff)
<<<

Oh my! Sam & Friends, La Choy ad spots...you guys are hardcore fans! hehe Creatureshop and JHC writers, not bad ambitions! I would love to see some new out there concepts and ideas pumped into JHC, they sure need it now than ever.
Thats why I loved the Jim Henson Hour so much. That show abounded with all kinds of geeks and subculture people(Digit, Zondra, etc)

>>>About the NYC scene... People take things too far, and it went too far. Then the local government cracked down. That's why that scene died.
More Karma in action. The rave thing's gone too far now too, and the federal government is getting ready to crack down on that...<<<

Yeah, especially when any media attention is negative. Between the drugs and people talking things too far, something once interesting can be depleted into a husk of what it once was.

>>>! Have you been getting into this new "Electroclash" a return to the early, early 80's style electronic? Check out "Miss Kitten and The Hacker" if you get a chance. You'll love 'em.<<<

Is that a new music genre? Im big on the new futurepop/ebm/synthpop sounds like vnv nation, apoptygma berzerk, covenant, and solder stuff like gary numan, depeche mode, human league, etc So just what are you crazy kids listening to these days Satori?

Happy to be aboard. Muppet people are the best people. Not to judge non-muppet people. LOL<<<

hehe, I had no idea til I went to Muppetfest! Hope to see ya at MF 2003!

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 04:47 PM

This will be my last post in this thread, but I just want to say one thing to our new friend:

<Um, yeah. Karma. You start it. It comes full circle. You cope. Happens to the best of us.>

How is it karma when I post my opinion and it gets totally bashed by everyone? Just because someone has an opinion on this board and people disagree with it, it becomes a mass attack. Well whatever, I'm sure you'll fit in fine with everyone on here, because it seems I'm the only person who thinks differently from everyone. Enjoy.

-Matt

beaker

08-23-2002, 05:00 PM

>>>Well whatever, I'm sure you'll fit in fine with everyone on here, because it seems I'm the only person who thinks differently from everyone<<<

Well Cantus, I for am glad to see this thread evolve, so thanx for posting! Really, its a neat cursory examination of different ways of expressing onself through dress and clothes. thats been a huge part of the Muppets for nearly 50 years.

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 05:17 PM

And thank you Cory, for not bashing me upon my leave. It was an interesting debate for a while, and then it got personal, and yadda yadda yadda...anyway, thanks. And as I usually say when I am just done:

I am the Walrus - Koo Koo Kachu :)

-Matt

kansasteen14

08-23-2002, 05:23 PM

I'm sorry to shouldnt have been so um cranky and I hope you know I'm not a girl(why does everyone think that)

ClubCreatures

08-23-2002, 05:23 PM

Matt,

I read the whole thread... and I don't think that people were bashing YOU, I think they were bashing you attributing your opinion to Jim Henson, and to all muppet fans.

Also you stated that your opinion was fact. People were disputing this.

Reread your original post:
--------------------

I believe it is horrible. Jim Henson made these characters with the intent of happiness and humor, and these wannabe-devil children embrace it. I think its degrading to the characters, and to Jim. I think its a bit annoying to Muppet fans like ourselves to see these punks walking around in Beaker shirts with their friends dressed in Slayer and Sixty-Nyne Wives shirts. They did to the Muppets what they do to all the good in the world;slap it on merchadise to make a statement about innocence. That's a fact (I know some of these morons). So, thats my opinion. I'd like to hear anyone elses.

-Matt
---------------------

Are you saying that you didn't want to hear anyone elses opinions? Because if so what you should have said is:

"I'd like to hear back from the people who agree with me."

Your statement really did not offend me because I think it was made out of ignorance, not that you are stupid, just that you have a narrow frame of reference.

I think I came into this forum lightly and in a friendly manner to prove a point.
I wanted to broaden your frame of reference, so that you could base future opinions on more than the "some morons" that you know.

That's all. Really. I'm not here to contribute to your feeling of being bashed.

Satori

kansasteen14

08-23-2002, 05:26 PM

also you really should stop trying trying to suck up to people after you post something and I'm not a girl

Natalie

08-23-2002, 05:32 PM

oh poor Kansasteen, yeah, i don't know why it doesn't have a box that says check M/F on our profiles, really, it is an important thing when talking to other people! (although, with my name, i'm sure it's quite obvious!)

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 05:43 PM

Kansasteen, maybe your just too young and stupid to understand what a mutual respect is.. can ya say it with me muuutuuuaalllll respeecctt. Its more than that with me and Cory, being I consider him a friend on the board and I highly value his imput on any subject brought to the table. Don't attack me mister 14-year-old, because it can get you thrown off the board. I personally don't care if you dislike me, heck I'll admit I dislike you, and I don't think you do anything good for the board (even then I've said more than I like to one this sort of subject). But I keep my opinions of specific indivisuals to myself, being its A) Offensive to others on the board to hear personal complaints about anothers behavior, and B) it can degrade the esteem of the person in question. So, to sum it up plain and simple, if you don't like me, don't read or reply to my posts.

And to Satori, it all just sounded to me like people were more attacking me than my opinion. Thank you for clarifying and welcome to the board. :)

Ah, now I am done, and I feel a bit better, so

Koo Koo Kachu, to you and yours. :D

-Matt

FellowWLover

08-23-2002, 06:28 PM

Since it seems like one of the posts which made you feel berated was mine, I would just like to point out that I actually sympathized with you in the beginning of this thread, and also defended your right to speak your mind.

I am not totally sure how I feel about the "goth" community, since I really don't know anyone who claims to be "goth", however, I thought your thread topic was interesting, and was happy to see it develop. I really never thought it got out of hand... until that last post there, where you called someone here "too young and stupid". Seems ironic that you appear to have ruined your own thread, and just when it was going so well, too!

I say, on with the cultural debate... minus the personal attacks of course!

kansasteen14

08-23-2002, 07:56 PM

okwell I am just going to stop because how can you call me stupid you have never met me and where did it say I was 14 just because it says that in my name means nada.and I am NOT a stupid person and am actual very gifted ask anyone I know.and I am sure everyone can care less for you and I will stop personal attacks but I cant get kicked off this board anymore than you(actually you could more probably) but if ur 17 how could you be that much smarter than me?

FellowWLover

08-23-2002, 08:52 PM

Hey Satori and Cory (that is "Beaker" for those who don't know),

Did one of you refer to that documentary about the "Club Kid Murder"? (I forget the guy's name right now... think it was Michael something. Does someone here know?) I have seen most of that on TV a few times, and have to admit that I found the whole thing fascinating.

Now for my question...

Was the "club kid scene" accurately portrayed there? What is your take on the coverage of that story and situation in general? How do you think the "club kid" bit is different from, say, the whole (original) Studio 54 hype? And when we are talking club kids, we don't really mean "goth" do we? (The only "goths" I ever knew were really just teens with too much time on their hands and a penchant for black hair dye... but remember folks, I am in my thirties.) And did the MTV expose on goth lifestyle do it justice? (haha)

Cantus Rock

08-23-2002, 09:06 PM

Excuse me FellowWLover, but did he not disrespect me 3 times before I posted what I did? I even editted my first post and APOLOGIZED to him about being to harsh, and your telling me I'm wrong?

Now, Kansasteen, when I said what I said about your age, I was moreso commenting on your mindstate. Yes, I'm 17, but if you've read any of my threads, you will see I am a very aticulate and intellectually tactful person who is well spoken and in no way a typical 17-year-old. Even Cory stated in one thread that I spoke very well. Its not about being "smart," its about carrying yourself properly in your posts, which I do. Now, I did not provoke you sir, I responded to the snied remarks you made towards me prior to my posts. I even (as previously stated) Apologized to you for being too harsh in my first post about you, and you have the nerve to say degrading words after that? I think I deserve an apology from you sir. I have shown nothing but respect, and you have been hurtful nearly any time. If you'd just admit you were wrong and apologize I'd love to just drop it.

It seems that I just can't do anything right around here. I apologize, and still get walked on.

-Matt

Natalie

08-23-2002, 09:09 PM

hey Matt, get on aim, i need someone to talk to now, i'm bored

frogboy4

08-23-2002, 09:12 PM

Are you talking about that A&E special on the club kid murder? Woah, creepy. It accurately portrayed one segment of the scene. It went a little overboard equating the lifestyle to murder, but that was just humorous sensationalism than anything offensive.

However, it does demonstrate the evils of substance abuse. Few abusers actually kill people, but that played a major factor in the crime IMHO. The report exposed that eventually the lights come on and what's left hanging around isn't always pretty because it can actually be very lonely for those who live for clubbing. I actually enjoyed the piece. It was just about as accurate as any news story.

Now, the MTV specials are truly laughable. The Goths I knew wouldn't appear on that channel if their lives depended on it. LOL!

Goths are not necessarily club kids, but they do go out - just to different places. Part of it is really "see and be seen". I walked the line between Goth and club kid so I never really subscribed to either group.

Natalie

08-23-2002, 09:25 PM

(sigh) whatever, no one ever wants to talk to me

Billy's Girl

08-24-2002, 05:14 AM

I'll talk to you!!! I just haven't posted here because I don't like getting drawn into arguments!!!

So......Hi Ngirl23!! Hope you are having a good day!! :) :) :)

FellowWLover

08-24-2002, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by frogboy4
Are you talking about that A&E special on the club kid murder?

Yeah that is one! I really thought it was well-done, but then again, I don't realy know anything about the club kid scene, so it could have been all phooey and what would I know? I didn't think that it was too heavy-handed on the drugs=murder thing, I mean that is what happened in that case... even the people involved admitted to that. I sincerely doubt he would have ever murdered anyone had he not been literally out of his mind due to drug usage. Kids.... don't try this at home.

frogboy4

08-24-2002, 08:22 AM

Very true. It was a good report. I absolutely love A&E documentaries!

FellowWLover

08-24-2002, 08:59 AM

Ever see this movie?

http://www.worldofwonder.net/party.htm

ClubCreatures

08-24-2002, 09:58 AM

Hey :)

Yeah, we're talking about the same thing. Michael Alig was the name you were fishing for... The film we were in is the feature film version of the same story. It is being directed by the same guys who did the original documentary.

We never knew him, as we were in college in Ohio when it was all happening in NYC... From everyone that we've talked to who was involved in the scene up there, they say that Party Monster, the A&E special and the E! True Hollywood special are all pretty on base for Michael's world at the time. They also say that he got too much credit for creating the scene, and not enough credit for screwing up NYC nightlife for everyone else.After he killed Angel, the local government cracked down on nightclubs for every little violation (like not having "No Smoking" signs in the bathroom)

Michael's behavior was not the behavior of most of the Clubkids. He was not really right to begin with, and then was too messed up on drugs most of the time to function correctly. Most of the original clubkids are in their late 30's now and are leading successful lives. Richie Rich has his own clothing label "Heathertte." Worn by most of the current Rock, Rap and Pop stars. Kabuki is doing all the makeup for big shows like "Sex in the City" Most are fashion designers now. A lot of them had some hand in the new movie.

Satori

FellowWLover

08-24-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by ClubCreatures
Yeah, we're talking about the same thing. Michael Alig was the name you were fishing for... The film we were in is the feature film version of the same story. It is being directed by the same guys who did the original documentary.

Ohh very interesting! Have you read the book it was based on?

http://hallmemoirs.com/specific_groups/169.shtml

I shall have to check it out. I was not aware of an E! True Hollywood Story on this subject, but will definately look for that too. I never miss an expose... haha.

It is funny to me that the Clubkids are all about my age now (well a tad older.) And also interesting to learn that most have made use and profit from their "mispent youth" (no no no I am not judging it). When does the movie you were in come out? And also, what about my Goth vs. Clubkid question? Didn't you know that once you checked into MC you were never allowed to leave?

:D

frogboy4

08-24-2002, 01:02 PM

Ah, so there's a legit documentary too, not just a television one. I'll have to check it out.

ClubCreatures

08-24-2002, 05:46 PM

The book "Disco Bloodbath" is shockingly funny. James is an absolute nut.

We met him in LA at a club called "Club Cherry" Labor Day weekend in 2000.

He came up to us, and we were wearing the exact same costumes that we are wearing on our front page. He was wearing a really nice suit, head shaved shiny bald. He walk up to Zazoo and started playing with the robots:

James: "Are these DIGIMON!?!"

Zazoo: "They're Beetleborgs. Somewhere between Transformers and Digimon."

James Squeals with glee and then introduces himself (like we didn't know)
introductions and talk of the book.

Satori: We have a website, we'd love for you to check out. Hands James a card.

James: "Oh thank you!" Promptly sticks in halfway in his mouth making kissy fish faces.

James: "Oh I want to introduce you the the founding editor of Details..."

Goes on from there... But that was our encounter with the author. The whole book is like that. Bizarre disjointed stories worked into a very darkly humorous read.

Now picture Seth Green doing the same types of things. He was hysterical. Never broke character even between takes. He kept the energy up at all times. Great Actor.

Hmm... on the whole "Goth" question. It's alot like the discussion earlier on the "Punk" movement... It really shouldn't even be around.

If you REALLY look at it, the real "Gothic" movement was at it's height in '83-'84 with people listening to darker edgier music than your typical "New Wave."

Then rap influenced dance music when young black DJs in Detroit and Chicago started getting into the electronic rhythms of "Kraftwerk." "House" was born. There was also a popular street music now called "Electro" or "Electrofunk" that was the original soundtrack for Breakdancing.

Not long after, Electronic based music split in Europe into two or more fractions. You had your lighter "Techno" and heavier "Industrial" a lot of the people into "Gothic" music transitioned into "Industrial."

"Techno" fractioned off into all of the Electronic genres that exist today. "Trance", "Drum & Bass", "Happy Hardcore", "Electronica" etc. etc. etc.
It's now kinda come full circle and their's a "New" genre that they are calling "Electroclash" that sounds a lot like really early "Electro" mixed with "New Wave" and a dab of "Punk" sensibilities. It's really kind of a backlash against the staleness of "House" and "Trance."

"House" continued and continues to evolve (I don't really like the state it's in but that's me)

IMHO, Industrial stopped evolving. There are a handful of groups that are putting out some good stuff, but I wouldn't say they are advancing the genre much. The newest that's come to our attention is "Dedsy." They are doing it right. We've gone to a few "Gothic and Industrial" clubs that seem to be playing some really good music. But the majority of it is no older than 1995-1996. The very best club of this type that we went to is called "Velvet Underground" on Queen street in Toronto.

One of our favorite clubs is called "Exit" up in Chicago. I guess you would consider it a "Gothic & Industrial" club. If we go out there, we usually choose to wear something less inspired by Henson, and say more inspired by Clive Barker. When we walk into "Exit" it is an immediate time-warp back to 1989-90 when we first were going out to a club called "Clubhaus" in Cincinnati. It's really just a big retro experience. More like "ah the music of our youth"

Hmmm... So if you've made it this far, you must be REALLY interested (LOL)

"The Club Kids" didn't really fit into a nationwide movement per se. They were a small group of people club owners, promoters and DJs who created a circus like atmosphere. In their clubs. It started in NYC and they took in on the road to the larger clubs in larger cities. It was a Regan-era marketing ploy in Clubland. They did it for #1 the money #2 the power #3 the creativity. In that order.

I 100% agree with earlier statements made by individuals about individualism being branded and processed now. Hot Topic is the perfect example. When we were dressing that way in the late '80s it was already outdated. We didn't really feel that we fit in to the mainstream and we chose that direction to express ourselves. We had to hunt and hunt for the clothes that made the look. We had to wait for the shipment of Doc Martins to come in from NYC. We had to put things together from stuff we found at thrift shops and then customize them. You had to hunt the entire city for dye to change your hair to an unnatural color. Now you just go to 1 of 4 shops in the mall, and they already have the clothes in 5 sizes with the safety pins already evenly machine placed for you. I don't really get it. I don't really understand why it's still around. I don't really understand why kids think that it still holds any ring of individualism. And what I REALLY don't understand is why Adults think it's shocking anymore.

Mainstream American culture is SO fragmented right now. It's also so pre-produced and packaged. It's no wonder that kids aren't creating something new.

Japanese kids are creating the most wonderful clothes right now. There is a segment of students that customize all their own clothes. They use combinations of new and vintage clothes and create a whole new look. It turns into fashion for fashion's sake. I'm hoping that American kids catch on to this.

A great book to see this is called "Fruits" it is put out by Phaidon (ISBN: 0 7148 4083 1)

Oh... look at me. Telling the longest story for the shortest question. (LOL)

Satori

FellowWLover

08-24-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by ClubCreatures

Hmm... on the whole "Goth" question. It's alot like the discussion earlier on the "Punk" movement... It really shouldn't even be around.

What shouldn't be around... the discussion or the movement? (haha) Thanks for the history; you are just about the most interesting person to join our little forum in quite some time, I must say.

I think I must have confused "goth" with some sort of neo-nazi group. Now I think I understand what we are talking about here. And funny enough, yes Virginia, I am old enough to have known some of that original goth music. Never was much for techno though... after awhile it makes my teeth grind (or that could... never mind... discussion for another forum I think).

Funny that bit you mentioned about the background music for break dancing. Guess that might be a little different from whatever those kids at my 8th grade dances would play as they flipped on the lights and demanded, "Let's break!" I have been very interested in the development of hip hop music lately, and it likewise fascinates me to see how these things dovetail.

As for fashion, it might grieve you to know that many of the kids at the local Catholic school (where I am the Art teacher) wear Doc Martins with their uniforms. *smiles* It always amuses me. I think back to my tenth grade boyfriend and how he hunted for those d$mn things high and low... oh how times change.

Ernie101

08-24-2002, 10:18 PM

I think you should stop fighitng we are here to have fun! If you choose to be immature about this you both should settle this somewhere else.Or you can now simply drop this and catus never tell people to stop talking on a thread you started.I am not taking sides im just saying this is very immature and should not be tolerated by phillip or any other mods

wockawocka

08-25-2002, 12:52 PM

I agree with my sister (ngirl23) way back in the posts. I would like to see more shirts with all the muppets or less famous ones. Right now, Ionly have one Kermit shirt and seven day muppet underwear, lol, but I'm gonna get a baby Kermy shirt! I really don't like non muppet fans buying clothes like that because that leaves less for the muppet fans!

Ernie101

08-25-2002, 03:41 PM

WockaWocka they usually do it as a mock buying the stuff as in non sponge bob fans buying mock shirts.

Joggy

08-25-2002, 04:59 PM

It's too bad, but it's the facts... We have hundreds of different people here and with every discussion there are people who feel left out because people don't agree with their statements. There's always people who don't know how to have a good discussion and therefore start throwing personal attacks. Not because this is "that wicked always fighting MC boohoo boohoo", but because of human nature, I guess. I really feel sorry for everyone who got out of this discussion with a bad taste in their mouths.

To get back on the subject: I agree with Jackie and Pete and everyone else who says, peoples is peoples.

It's not like you can say: "You are not allowed to love Muppets" to everyone who lives in different ways than you do. "Stay away from the Muppets! You are a bad kid (translation: you are different) so you're not allowed to have Kermit on your shirt!" I thought differences was what Henson is all about.

When I see a highly objective band with an agressive drummer wearing an Animal shirt, I don't think: "Ooh, poor Jim Henson, poor Muppets. They're attracting bad people. How awful." No, I think "This person liked Henson's work and he's showing it off. That's cool!" I mean, the guy walked around in a store saying: "Hey, that's that cool drummer from the old Muppet Show!" How can you say no to that?

I do object to use of Muppets in sexual or other objective practices. That's what series like South Park are for. Like Jes said, it might confuse or scare the younger fans.

Jackie

08-26-2002, 10:28 AM

We're all different. That makes the world interesting :)

beaker

08-26-2002, 04:42 PM

cantus:And thank you Cory, for not bashing me upon my leave. It was an interesting debate for a while, and then it got personal, and yadda yadda yadda...anyway, thanks. And as I usually say when I am just done:
<<<<

Well, its funny...oddly enuff some of my fave people on MC Ive gotten into the biggest psuedo personal debates with as of late.

cantus:>>can ya say it with me muuutuuuaalllll respeecctt. Its more than that with me and Cory, being I consider him a friend on the board and I highly value his imput on any subject brought to the table. <<<

Why thank you mr. cantus! I believe you exhibit very similair
thoughts and ideas and enthusiasm I did when I first came on MC, so I see a lot of that in the new people on here. I agree though, sometimes arguments are bound to happen...you have
kids debating wiht twenties people debating with older folks...yet we all find common ground^_^

kansasteen14

08-26-2002, 04:44 PM

joggy,that was a really good point.when an agreesive drummer is wearing an Animal shirt he is sorta saying he was inspired by that annd everyone sorry if you thought I was acting immature.

beaker

08-26-2002, 04:59 PM

I too have a preety good grasp on the evolvution of modern music subcultures...

If you REALLY look at it, the real "Gothic" movement was at it's height in '83-'84 with people listening to darker edgier music than your typical "New Wave."<<<

The traditional goth thing of course was a breakway from punk...the early 80's uk bat cave scene inspired most of the traditional look, also credited to people like Siouxsie Sioux and company.(Siouxsie and the Banshees, whom I saw like 8 years ago in sf when i was in that whole scene) By the late 80's through early 80's virtually anyone who listened to Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, Smiths, Depeche Mode, or typically moody british mod rock and dressed slightly askew could have been deemed 'goth'. Now the 90's is a whole other thing...as the word 'goth' soon got adopted by the mainstream, and shifted onto any kid who listened to nine inch nails, marilyn manson,
etc and was deemed a freak. So by 1997, a word that used to be defined as that 'weird kid at school who listened to british mod music and wrote poetry in 1987' was somehow now in the eyes of the media 'that disturbed kid who listened to manson and threatened to shoot people at school'. Though of course that wasnt the case...

Theres still an active intelligent goth community, though I find the whole label silly. Most have moved way from 12" records and bauhaus onto the online realm and electronic music

>>>Then rap influenced dance music when young black DJs in Detroit and Chicago started getting into the electronic rhythms of "Kraftwerk." "House" was born. There was also a popular street music now called "Electro" or "Electrofunk" that was the original soundtrack for Breakdancing.<<<

Theres a great documentray called Modulations about this. Bands like Kraftwerk, and their Brooklyn brethren Africa Bambaata
segweyed ont he east coast into what would typically be described as 'house', or new wave/funk spedup with breakbeats.

Not long after, Electronic based music split in Europe into two or more fractions. You had your lighter "Techno" and heavier "Industrial" a lot of the people into "Gothic" music transitioned into "Industrial."<<<

industrial being of course what most goth people still listen to today, cutting edge harsher electronic dance like skinny puppy, front line assembly, front 242, ministry, etc. Techno if youll recall, has a very mainstream push in 1997 under the word 'electronica'(still heard in car commercials) with bands like underworld, fsol, moby, prodigy, aphex twin, crystal method, etc

>>>"Techno" fractioned off into all of the Electronic genres that exist today. "Trance", "Drum & Bass", "Happy Hardcore", "Electronica" etc. etc. etc.<<<

the late 90's is when a lot of these genres were pushed into the mainstream and lost steam. Everything from gabber(violent techno) and jungle/dnb was being used in movies and advertising. A documentary called Metalheadz documents that progression. Most of all this stuff is UK based.

IMHO, Industrial stopped evolving. There are a handful of groups that are putting out some good stuff, but I wouldn't say they are advancing the genre much<<<

while industrial died off some years ago, the HUGE thing now is oddly enuff an underground genre that has imbraced goths, industrial fans, ravers, electronic music fans, etc alike. Its huge from everything from raves, clubs, etc..generally termed 'ebm' or modern 'synthpop' or the new industrial, its a fusion of trance, 80's synthpop, and industrial...bands like vnv nation, apoptygma berzerk, and covenant play to thousands at outdoor european festivals and are getting huge here. Imagine a very futuristic version of depeche mode, with intelligent lyrics, some orchestral
elements, etc.

"The Club Kids" didn't really fit into a nationwide movement per se. They were a small group of people club owners, promoters and DJs who created a circus like atmosphere.<<<

typical club kid image as seen on the mid 90's talk shows: think platforms, with ski goggles, funky hair and tight plastic shirts.

>>>I 100% agree with earlier statements made by individuals about individualism being branded and processed now. Hot Topic is the perfect example.<<<

Thank you! That was my one big argument I made a few posts back. Where in ya used to have to go up and down haight street in sf to find odd clothing, now its prepackaged for mass consumption.

>>>Japanese kids are creating the most wonderful clothes right now. There is a segment of students that customize all their own clothes. They use combinations of new and vintage clothes and create a whole new look. It turns into fashion for fashion's sake. I'm hoping that American kids catch on to this. <<<

Japanese goth/visual-kei/cyberpunk fashion is the edgiest thing right now. Like something out of a william gibson novel or an anime. very cool stuff.

You think Marilyn Manson dresses out there, ya should see some of the visual kei/jpop artists out there from Japan! I'd like to see that style, which to me is the most advanced and coolest of all the subculture styles come stateside.