Sesame Street to Introduce HIV-Positive Muppet

[Phillip Chapman]

Sesame Street to Introduce HIV-Positive Muppet
Courtesy of Reuters

Sesame Street will soon introduce its first HIV positive Muppet character to children of South Africa, where one in nine people have the virus that can lead to AIDS.

The upbeat female Muppet will join "Takalani Sesame" on Sept. 30 for its third season on the South African Broadcasting Corp.

The character -- which has yet to have a name or final color or form -- will travel to many if not all of the eight other nations that air versions of the educational children's show that began in the United States in 1969, said Joel Schneider, vice president and senior adviser to the Sesame Street Workshop.

Schneider said talks are under way to introduce an HIV-positive character to U.S. viewers.

Schneider announced the new character this week at the 14th International AIDS Conference in Barcelona, Spain, where he spoke by telephone on Thursday.

"This character will be fully a part of the community," Schneider said. "She will have high self-esteem. Women are often stigmatized about HIV and we are providing a good role model as to how to deal with one's situation and how to interact with the community."

The program is aimed at children from 3 to 7 and the messages delivered by the new character will be "appropriate," said Schneider, meaning that there will be no explicit mention of sex.

"Not every show will deal explicitly with HIV/AIDS," Schneider said. "We want to show that here is an HIV-positive member of our community who you can touch and interact with.

"We will be very careful to fashion our messages so they are appropriate to the age group. What do I do when I cut my finger? What do I do when you cut your finger? That sort of thing."

"Takalani Sesame" will be the second children's show in South Africa to have an HIV-positive character. But it is believed to be the first among shows designed for preschoolers, said Beatrice Chow, spokeswoman for the Sesame Street Workshop in New York.

In some parts of South Africa, 40 percent of women of child-bearing age are infected with HIV, and in 2000, about 40 percent of adult deaths in South Africa were attributed to AIDS, according to the State Department.

[MuppetQuilter]

Wow! This is great! What a powerful message this Muppet could send about acceptance and empathy and looking at the person and not the disease.

I hope she comes to the US. She would probably be a good way to educate people about how safe it really is to have HIV+ friends. There are plenty of kids with AIDS and HIV in this country who could use a positive role model as well as a little understanding from the rest of us.

[Luke]

Actually, while i'm not totally objecting to this kind of thing being introduced in South Africa where as it says, 40 per cent of women at child bearing age have HIV, i would be against this being introduced in the USA as a permanent character.

HIV is obviously from the facts above, a lot more common in South Africa and therefore it's even more important for a child in S.Africa to need to know more about it, because chances are they might be living with it in their family or community. Because it is so common the attitude there is a lot more casual about Aids/HIV and a lot more freely talked about.

While it might be the same for a child in the USA to be living around or being in contact with someone who has HIV/Aids it is a lot less widely discussed with children, and (not saying whether this is right or wrong) some parents attitudes are likely to be a lot more reserved about exposing their kids to this kind of thing. Obviously, it is upto the parents what they allow their child to watch but i think that featuring a HIV positive character permanently would be a mistake because it might mean a lot of parents switch Sesame Street off forever in their households and that'll be a shame, especially with all the other educational value the show has. If they were going to introduce it in the USA i would be in favor of them using the character for a few special episodes clearly advertised so that parents could decide whether or not they wanted their kids to watch, then just write the character out so that the message was delivered to those who wanted it delivered, and those who didn't could get back to watching Sesame Street.

[beaker]

Well, quite frankly AIDS p*sses me off. It cost us one of the greatest puppeteers ever, as well as various sport and screen legends. When I heard the study about Africa being riddled
with AIDS it made me shocked and saddened.

This Sesame Street news...for one. Its no secret even the president of S. Africa has seemed majorly ignorant on the issue of AIDS, thinking HIV doesnt neccecerily cuase AIDS.

I will admit, when I saw this headline posted on toughpigs, I thought 'great, all we need is more fake bert and bin laden type humour'. But when I read the standings and the facts, it sounds important.

But Luke, I have another point...I personally do not give a rats behind what American parents think about their kid' s being 'exposed' to such a thing. I mean were tlaking about a country where so many people are shacked up in their Gap and Pottery Barn with nary a national centric care to *gasp* things outside their cul-de-sac. People think AIDS went out the skinny tie and Dynasty reruns. I mean the fact misinformed parents protested for Bert and Ernie beign supposedly gay shows you just how backwards people's mentality still is.

And I hate to say it, but this should stay a S. African segment of Sesame...let's not kid ourselves. This kind of character introduced to the US? And you thought there was an uproar over Bert and Ernie's supposed lifestyle? This beyond the fact the press and Muppet detractors would have a field day with this news piece.

Why does AIDS ***** me off? Because its freaking 2002 and it seems like 1982 on the AIDS front. The government of the US and across the globe would rather spend infinit billions on stockpiling weapons than actually face up to an ever mounting plague.
Let's face it, not only does the African government not care,
but sadly for the children their own parents dont care it would seem. A frollic in the hut without any thinking seems to be the order of the day. S afirca, Sudan, Uganda, etc. A continent where 8 year old Sierra Leone boys are trained to kill and a continent the world forgot and cares nothing about...well goodness,
forget the rumors of AIDS originating in Africa. It appears that over 2 decades later the world has turned a blind eye such an alarming an dobvious epidemic.

So...it seems once again Sesame international is up to the task at taking on extremely volatile subjects in the world eye where the governments wont.

This illustrates that Jim Henson's vision is farther reaching and hahs more b*lls to tackle something than even the governments of the world.

[MuppetQuilter]

I completely disagree. A lot of people were offended by integrating public schools in the 50s. A lot of parents didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss such things with children. I don't think we do the world any favors by catering to such beliefs.

Yes, some people will be uncomfortable with it-- but that is precisely the reason it is needed. People, of all ages, need to understand that HIV is not spread through casual contact and that it is not acceptable to shun people who have it. The reality is the kids watching Sesame Street today are going to have to deal with it. In the US HIV is spreading fastest among middle class women (my information may be about a year out of date-- so don't quote me on that). People need to understand the disease. They need to understand that people with HIV are in fact PEOPLE. Sesame Street has a history of tackling tough subjects that a lot of people don't like to bring up. Just having all those people and Muppets from different backgrounds interacting featured on a television show in the early 70s was pretty dramatic and there are still people who assume Sesame Street is just for inner-city kids.

I say, go for it! Show kids how to be accepting and safe at the same time. Show parents that kids with diseases and potential diseases are still kids who need to run and play and learn to count. I'm sure it will ruffle a few feathers (sorry, no pun intended) but Sesame Street would undoubtably do it with a great deal of grace and care. We're not talking high school health class here. We're talking about three year olds playing with other three year olds and respecting differences. Sesame Street will win over the doubters and the folks who would turn it off entirely, well, they probably never turned it on for other reasons.

When we, as a society, begin censoring ourselves so as not to offend the prejudiced and uneducated, we open the door for a whole lot of horror. I feel we have an obligation to ourselves, each other, and most especially our children to educate those who do not understand and stand up and fight for all humans to be treated with dignity and respect.

Okay, I'll get off my high horse now.

[Luke]

Yup, more or less agreed, but the point is that when we are talking about 3 to 7 year old minors, parents need to have the CHOICE without the whole show becoming off limits to them. It is basically their legal right !

Being minors the viewers are not responsible for themselves and therefore should not have a subject like this thrust upon them without those who are responsible for them agreeing. If this doesn't happen i absolutely guarantee you one high profile case of a parent taking Sesame Workshop to court for educating her child about a sexually related disease without parental permission. Sesame in court won't exactly be great publicity for a kids show.

It may well be useful for the kids to know about it or deal with it, but legally they don't yet decide these things for themselves and their parents are entitled to make those decisions for them whether those turn out to be right or wrong.

[monkeymuppet]

I think that this is one of the best things Sesame Street has done. People need to know about this disease and if many adults are too stubborn to get educated, starting with children is great. Now the people that are most at risk of getting infected are the ones that think that they aren't in the risk group( gay, drug users, from Africa).... It might be better if Sesame Street chose a different character for other countries. Having a character from South Africa is good, but since many people believe that they cant get HIV if they are in a "risk group" this might not be a good thing.
Is this a good thing or bad thing??
I'm confusing myself. Let me sleep on it and I'll finish typing my reply later.

Adios,
~Megan~

[beaker]

Leave it too JHC intl. to be the one that steps up to the plate to tackle this subject! Sadly, I think people still have misinformed concepts regarding HIV/AIDS. Now then, what I was saying was, the feel of what Reuters article contained, it seems this is designed for the Afircan Sesame Street. Believe me, if Sesame Workshop in the US felt it was neccesary they would introduce this character. The situation in Africa seems a bit urgent.

Now, my question...why are so many people retarded? And I dont mean mentally handicapped. I mean, so retarded they are ignorant to the hows and why of AIDS still in the year of 2002,
therefore continuing to spread it...and also to the powers that be over funding(governments, etc) and of course the average perception of this disease.

As for parents being able to control what their kid's watch and take in for std related matters...is this really a sexually transmitted matter when the kid has it? Then it becomes genetic, as in no way did the kid get it other than being born.

The reality is this character will stay in Afirca for better or worse, because for various reasons...were talking about sesame usa, where "where Elmo left his pillow" seems to be of a more pending matter on the shiny happy ghetto bricks of 'the street'.

[monkeymuppet]

Ok. I do believe that this is a great thing. Is it really wrong when a topic like this is discussed around kids? Hopefully this will make all people aware. Go Sesame!

Adios,
~Megan~

[frogboy4]

It is a changing world and AIDS is an unfortunate fact of life. It is my opinion that kids 3-7 years of age do not need to be introduced to any sort of sexuality, but they are placed in jeopardy when ignorant of important information such as AIDS. Kids are informed about cancer and this should be treated no differently!

*To clear things up - as we all know, this is not only a sexual disease or one that affects only those in a particular way of life. *

I completely disagree with maintaining some sort of conservative status quo of ignorance in children. If a parent sees fit not to expose their child of the issue then so be it - they'll have to lock their kid in a box. Sesame Street is a perfect place to discuss the issue appropriately and they have a wonderful track record in that department.

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by frogboy4

I completely disagree with maintaining some sort of conservative status quo of ignorance in children. If a parent sees fit not to expose their child of the issue then so be it - they'll have to lock their kid in a box. Sesame Street is a perfect place to discuss the issue appropriately and they have a wonderful track record in that department.

Well said!

A lot of people were concerned when Sesame Street decided to deal with 9/11. That turned out to be Elmo witnessing a grease fire, which was scary but not really life threatening and then being scared again by the fire fighters. He visited the fire station, got to see the people behind the suits, and learend all about the good things fire fighters do. Along the way kids learned they can turn to a fire fighter for help and not to be afraid if one approaches them in a scary situation. Completely age appropriate. Nothing was said about terrorism, death, or hatred. It was not political.

I believe Sesame Street would do the same thing here. STDs would not be a part of the discussion. A Muppet would simply talk about one aspect of their life that can be scary, both to them and others, and everyone would learn to understand and help. Probably wouldn't be any different from the little girl who moved into the street who has braces on her legs and uses a wheel chair much of the time. The other characters ask, get a straight answer, and everyone moves on.

Hiding from something doesn't make it go away. Way too many children in the US are HIV+ and as long as we (as a society) believe AIDS is something that happens to other people those numbers will continue to climb and those kids will continue to be hurt by our ignorance and fear. A hundred years ago people with mental and/or physical disablities were locked up in institutions and attics. Education is the only way to conquer those sorts of fears and kids are easier to educate than close minded adults.

Yes, the situation is more dire in South Africa. But why wait till one in nine people is suffering to do something to help? We're not talking about a daily health lecture from Big Bird. We're talking about one or two episodes. Maybe a half hour of screen time. Sesame Street tackles this kind of thing all the time with ease and dignity. This is a no brainer to me.

[Aerosmith]

I think this is a good thing kids need to know about it. Also Aids took the life of one of my favorite bands lead singer Freddie Mercury of Queen :(

[sstVideo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58014-2002Jul11.html

[FellowWLover]

Personally, I do not feel that it is necessary for SS to introduce a character with "HIV" in order to teach tolerance for those who are sick or otherwise "different". It would be unusual for a three-year-old to discriminate against or even acknowledge someone around them as "sick" unless they were exhibiting scary or confusing symptoms.

IMO, it would be more useful for SS to show a hospital setting where a Muppet was ill in bed (perhaps hooked up to an IV or something) without specifing what the illness is. It is quite likely that little kids may have elderly grandparents or other relatives (even themselves of course) who are in a hospital, so this introducation would be useful and could be extended as the patient Muppet returns to the street (or I guess dies, but not sure that is the direction they want to go).

Personally, I think that HIV is something that the SS age group (which is really 2 to 4 or 5 years old... face it) should not have to deal with. Kids who face it in everday life (and certainly in Africa it seems appropriate... I am more talking about the US) will already have first hand knowledge, and I feel that, while an important topic, HIV knowledge and tolerance is a grade-school (not pre-school) topic.

[Jackie]

Maybe the episode is more for parents...I mean children emulate their parents and if they see them treating someone differently, they will do the same. Sesame Street is meant for Parents and Children to watch together. So if a Parent sees that a person with HIV can live normally in a community they will pass those values on to their kids.

But i don't know :)

[frogboy4]

Showing a character only in a hospital setting would be grossly misleading. AIDS is a terrible disease but not everybody who is HIV positive spends their entire life hooked up to a machine in a hospital and showing only that part of it wouldn't be accurate. I'm thinking that maybe this program should be in primetime now. Geez, this disease has been around for some time now and it appears that adults are still rather uninformed.:eek:

[radionate]

I really don't know what or how I feel about this. I'm honestly in shock and disbelief after reading the article. Our world is changing every so drastically everyday. While I'm not that old, when I look at my nephews and other young children today, I am amazed at not only their maturity for their ages, but also what they are aware of that I never thought of till I was much older. But to not realize this, is the same as burying your head in the sand, or pretending its not happening.

I'm sure S.S. will handle this matter with the greatest dignity and respect, and on a personal level I couldn't be more amazed and awestruck at the possibility of tackling such a subject. Children, like their parents, are grossly uninformed about this disease.
Heck, I remember as a kid and even a teenager being afraid that I could contact HIV through sneezes or touches. I'm sure those urban legends haven't changed.

If we are to ever have a generation who has a full understanding of this disease, we need to start with the young. To educate them, and promote awareness. This is the perfect catalyst for that.

I just hope and pray for the day when education about HIV/AIDS will no longer be necessary, as it will only be a subject in history classes. And no one, in any country, gay or straight, male or female, young or old will have to suffer. That is my prayer.

[radionate]

Originally posted by Luke
Yup, more or less agreed, but the point is that when we are talking about 3 to 7 year old minors, parents need to have the CHOICE without the whole show becoming off limits to them. It is basically their legal right !

Its called the "off button" Luke.

Televisions are not babysitters, but unfortunatly in today's society they are treated as such. I would welcome any parent to sue me over content on a children's television show. 'Cause if I were to tackle subject material as sensitive and important as this, I would air a disclaimer before the show (and indeed many days before the show), to draw attention to the parent of the subject matter. They wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally. But then again, those children who are plopped down in front of the TV and are left alone are just the ones who need education about things such as HIV/AIDS, as more often then not their parents haven't got a clue about it, nor anything else.

[Drtooth]

AIDS, HIV, and all disease is a fact of life. Think about it this way, on Sesame Street, we have characters like Linda, a hearing impaired woman, Emily, a girl confined to a wheel chair, and Hooper, who died. Face it, Sesame Street has to be depressing sometimes. Life isn't all funshine, wowwypops and rainy-bows, you know. Besides, HIV is very serious, especially in South Africa. This has come up a lot in the news lately (mainly about drug costs), so it would seem to be very important to have on this show.

And frankly if we have a character like that over here, it would be in poor taste to name him "Richard!"

[FellowWLover]

I clearly stated that I did not think that making the show about HIV was necessary, and that it would be *more* useful to show a hospital setting *rather* than an HIV Muppet since most kids in the US are likely to have a hospital experience, but may or may not deal with HIV by age 5. Naturally I know that HIV does not equal hospital.

For the record, I have known several people living with HIV, as well as having been to a few funerals for the same. Still, I maintain that the under five set need not be concerned with delving into the world of HIV at such a tender age. It has nothing to do with being uninformed. As a parent, I feel that some topics should be addressed very early, and that others can wait a few years. The introducation of an HIV character would not keep me from showing SS to my child, however, and I understand why kids in Africa have a compelling need for the proposed character.

[Ol' Buddy Bert]

This is a most interesting discussion...

For some reason I reminded of the rumours that circulated around the time Jim Henson passed away sayinng that the CTW was going to have the character of Ernie die to teach kids about death.

If I recall correctly, and I don't know if this was an official statement or not, two things were said at the time: Death was an issue that was talked about when Mr. Hooper died and Muppets don't die because they're not human. They are foam and fleece and products of the imagination.

With that in mind, I don't necessarily question the appropriateness of a character on the street that has HIV but I wonder if it should really be a Muppet that has the disease as opposed to a _real_ person if the previous statement is true.

I am also reminded that this no longer JHC but the seperate entity of the Sesame Workshop.

Regardless, I think the goals are admirable but I'm not so certain as to the means.

[Luke]

Jamie :-

I think you interpreted Jessicas post wrongly. She said that "IMO, it would be more useful for SS to show a hospital setting where a Muppet was ill in bed (perhaps hooked up to an IV or something) without specifing what the illness is." So she was suggesting that instead of tackling HIV they tackled serious illness more generically with this kind of hospital setting which i agree, with elderly grandparents, they would be much more likely to experience rather than HIV. So she was certainly not misinformed about the amount of time HIV patients spend in hospital. I do agree though that this solution doesn't tackle what they are trying to tackle though, but then it's Jessicas opinion that they shouldn't specifically tackle this.

Radionate :-

Yup, i was referring to the 'off button' in my post. I wanted to state that they should limit this storyline to a couple of episodes and air disclaimers and things. I want the parents to be able to use the 'off button' just for the episodes they know are going to contain this and not just be in the dark, otherwise they may decide to use the 'off button' permanently. From how i interpreted other people, they seemed to suggest the show include this kind of content as normal, because if their parents decided they should not watch it then it is their parents who really need educating. I think this is grossly unfair as people come from all different kinds of cultures, classes and backgrounds and as guardians are perfectly entitled to monitor what their underage kids are exposed to.

[frogboy4]

I think that the hospital setting is a separate issue entirely in that case. I think we live in an unfortunate age when all our lives have been (or will be) affected by AIDS. I see no problem with a positive character on SS [that is not exclusively in a hospital setting]. I just wish there would be no need for it, but IMHO there definitely is. What are you afraid of a child learning about is my question? If it's over a kid's head he/she will disregard it. Just doesn't make sense to me. We all know that this subject would be handled appropriately.:confused: :confused:

[radionate]

I'm glad we are in agreement with the "off button", but I'm don't think we see eye to eye on the HIV+ Muppet (which is ok, I'm not attacking you).

I just think that the puppet shouldn't just disappear after a few episodes. YES disclaimers should be aired before the episodes that deal with its HIV status, but to have the puppet just leave after a few episodes is insane. The thing above every thing else that people need to realize is that life goes on for those infected with HIV and AIDS. If the character continued to be on the street, it would allow adults and children to see that these people are no different then anyone else. They continue to live. They laugh, play, and cry just like the rest of us. While I don't think its HIV status should be the focal point every time they walk on camera, their presence would stand as a reminder that these people are a part of our everyday lives. They are our mailmen, teachers, neighbors, and friends. They don't just fade away; they struggle to live as close to a normal life as we do.

[FellowWLover]

I know that some parents will disagree with me, but here is my reasoning. I don't expect you to understand it.

I simply feel that early childhood should be an innocent, untroubled period of time for children to live in a happy, carefree manner. I think that in a rush to "educate" kids about all the troubles in the world, our society sometimes robs children of some of the only exclusively worry free times of their lives.

Certainly some children will be forced to learn about HIV early due to circumstance (again, the kids in Africa especially). But personally, my three-year-old has no need to know about HIV *right now*

I am not saying that kids should not be taught about HIV at all (and all the other modern day issues of 2002 and beyond). I just believe that pre-school is too early. That is why I suggested a broader issue of "sick people" which could lay a foundation for further understanding about HIV and cancer and other illness. Does a three-year-old need to know about a specific disease, or just that people sometimes get sick, and although it might be a little confusing or scary, we should be compassionate and unafraid? Can't we wait until at least first grade before we spell it out?

[Drtooth]

In my opinion, if one should show up in the US, I think it should be a human. I just hope he doesn't run Hooper's store.

Here's my theory. When David died, his death was covered up, because it would have probably caused some sort of controversy over Hooper's store. I call it the curse. When Handford left the store, I actually got worried about the actor, wondering if he died. I dunno, it's just too weird for me.

And besides, Muppets don't die, they just get phased out of the show, and leave our memories.

As for the "off switch," Where I come from, there's something much worse one channel up. Jerry Springer.:mad: :mad: :mad:

One of these days, he'll be a nobody, a bum, a one hit wonder. I can't wait till he gets cancelled.

[radionate]

Originally posted by FellowWLover
I simply feel that early childhood should be an innocent, untroubled period of time for children to live in a happy, carefree manner. I think that in a rush to "educate" kids about all the troubles in the world, our society sometimes robs children of some of the only exclusively worry free times of their lives.


I too believe that childhood should be happy, carefree and full of the innocent wonder of a child. Unfortunately that time is becoming less and less today. Young children are getting molested by other young children for crying out loud! And children hear things, and often project them without realizing what they are doing. Yes, 3 to 4 year olds shouldn't have major lessons in HIV, but they should be aware of illnesses, and how they are spread. S.S. targets more then just 3 to 4 year olds; the audience is a little wider. I'm sure that nothing would be broadcast that wouldn't be inappropriate for a child. If they are too young to comprehend, as Jamie said, it will just go over their head, but perhaps be absorbed by the parent (if the child is fortunate enough to be watching with their folks).

[FellowWLover]

Well, I will grant you this... yes, SS targets older than the 2-5 set, but in reality, I do not know one child over age five that watches it. And mostly the kids I know who are even 4 or 5 do not watch it anymore. AND, I know literally hundreds of kids (being a teacher and having 20 kids under age 7 on my block alone).

[radionate]

My point exactly, childhood is growing shorter and shorter, and these kids, whether we like it or not, need a basis of knowledge. Its a double edged sword to say the least, and no side is right, but I have a good feeling those kids 4-5 and even 6-7 know things that could make a sailor blush.

[Drtooth]

..As I said. Jerry Springer. These sleazy talk shows have permiated our culture and poisoned our kid's minds!!! It is important that he be removed from the air.

You can't say F*rt on Ren and Stimpy, but you can have a show about $%&*^ (*)&^^& $%^&* *()^&* ^&%*^(^ with a rubber hose!!! If you bleep out certain Swear words, the FCC will let you go.

I swear, this latchkey kid generation is going to ruin civilization.

[FellowWLover]

I have a good feeling those kids 4-5 and even 6-7 know things that could make a sailor blush.

Who exactly are we talking about here? I can guarantee you that the kids I am referring to know no such thing. Please remember that not all children are being raised by the Jerry Springer generation!

[Drtooth]

Yeah, but I just hate him so much!!!!

So many kids around here are very very nasty. They go around harassing everyone. No wonder why they don't watch sesame. It tells them that they should BEHAVE !!!!

Sorry! Just feelin' a little low!

[radionate]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used such a strong example, but these kids know more then any of us did at that age, and oftentimes they don't have a proper understanding of such information. They know what sex is (a good chunk of them, even if their parents swear they don't). They know about cancer, death, reproduction, swear words, and lord only knows what else. The problem is that often times they hide their knowledge, and are truly misinformed.

[Drtooth]

The only thing bad I picked up was swearing, and my parents slapped me for that. I'm actually for better parenting. These days, kids rule everything, and parents go for three, four jobs to keep them rolling in Playstation 2's and Game Cubes. Not to mention games with the "M" rating (Grand theft auto, etc.) One of my cousins was actually thrown out of the house for being unruley! That's what I hear.

[Hays]

I think we need to remember that the core of this issue is different with children. What's important to them isn't really how HIV IS spread, but rather how it's NOT spread. That being said, I'm hoping that Sesame Street mirrors what it did for 9/11, and makes the information more general. Even in 2002, it's pretty rare that a kid will come into contact with someone that they know has HIV, but ALL children eventually confront someone with a scary differece. There are plenty of conditions out there that cause kids to question their personal safety, and confusion can often lead to cruel behavior that needs to be addressed. A new character would be a great way to teach kids, but I hope that by being general it could also support kids who have things other than HIV (cystic fibrosis, cancer, asthma, etc.) without leaving them out.

Although I can understand how this is a hot-button issue for puppeteers, (I don't know anybody in the business who hasn't lost someone) I don't think children need to be educated about HIV reducing behavior - they don't typically get HIV from behaviors they can control. The main point of educating adults about HIV is to reduce high-risk behaviors like unsafe sex, needle sharing, etc., and to encourage immediate treatment - and I hope our world hasn't changed so much that we need to teach this to toddlers.

Something that concerns me about Sesame Street lately is that it seems to be outlining values rather than teaching skills. In the past season, there has been a tendancy towards telling kids what is right, rather than showing them specific ways to cope. I hope that the new puppet teaches kids how to manage their feelings and shows them ways to include children with differences. It would be sad if they just plopped a sick puppet in the middle of Sesame Street and nobody acted like anything was amiss, with the assumption that viewers will just follow along.

[beaker]

Heres my thoughts on it all a day after reading it....

Whatever works in S Africa Sesame, BUT!
It would not be appropriate to have a HIV muppet here in the states. Why? Because Muppets do not get diseases, and this would make it all the more confusing to kids. IT would make it a complicated mess, and make it more of a distance to udnerstand.

This hasnt been brought up...Sesame USA already has the means to deal with AIDS, as my solution: NO MUPPET with HIV!!! Instead, a real human person...dont ya guys watch Elmos World from time to time. Mr. Noodle is living with AIDS, as actor Michael Jeter(evening shade, jurassic park 3) would be a great example of someone living life to the fullest wiht the virus.

Not only would a Muppet with HIV cause an upraor here, but people arent as thoughtful as we of course are on here (we can talk about this in a graceful discourse wihtout some lurker posting who knows what about this) This would just cuase to much of a problem and not help anything.

Much more better for people to relate to an actual person, as Im sorry, a Muppet with HIV just doesnt jive.

and to felloww:

"I simply feel that early childhood should be an innocent, untroubled period of time for children to live in a happy, carefree manner. I think that in a rush to "educate" kids about all the troubles in the world, our society sometimes robs children of some of the only exclusively worry free times of their lives."

I agree 100% ! I grew up in the early 80's-late 80's and would have been scared to see this subject matter in the way it sound slike itll be handled, when i was say 5. youre not gonna see israelia and palestinian muppets on US sesame, so the same thing should apply here. Sorry to say this, but it geographically more imperitive for that to stay there, and if the issue needs to be addressed here, an actual person! They dont have a deaf muppet! They have a deaf person.

[frogboy4]

While I understand where the [loss of innocence] argument comes from, I feel it is delusional to think that kids (even of that age) don’t already have to deal with many more dire issues. I also don’t feel that having such a character on Sesame Street would do anything but teach kids understanding and tolerance for people with this specific disease without going into specifics of course. I think Mr. Hooper’s death was much more traumatic to kids than this character will be. I think a big case is being made over nothing.

Some say kids have lost their innocence a decade ago, some would argue it happened on September 11th, but the truth is our parents were taught to hide under their desks during the threat of a nuclear attack. Not only was that rather asinine, it did not serve to really help anything, but this really could.

Change is made by the pioneers of the world and better things can’t happen without a little controversy. I think this is one of those cases.

[frogboy4]

...actually, maybe it being a person would be a better idea, but kids just seem to respond better to Muppets. To tell you the truth, I never liked any of the people on Sesame Street. (ducks)

[Drtooth]

I think the angle on this is not how one can get AIDS or that one could get AIDS, but more of the lines of What AIDS is, and that people with AIDS can live normal, productive lives. That's what I think, anyway.

But Seriously, I agree with a lot of you. It shouldn't be a muppet, but rather a human on the street. Muppets, as said before are immortal, like most cartoon characters. No one would like to see a cartoon about Bugs Bunny getting cancer, or Mickey Mouse with HIV.

And will this lead to more somber moments on the show? Will it lead to more unhappy truths in other co-productions? I just have this strange thought running around in my head about Rechov Sumsum (the Middle Eastern Co-production) Will this lead to stories about Jewish families who lost loved ones when an Islamic miliant blows himself up on a bus, or when a Palistinian family's house is destroied (and members killed) by Israeli tanks? I severely doubt it, but it's what happens.

Sesame isn't so much about reality reality (for further coment, I suggest stopping by a library or Bookstore and look for a copy of Mad about the 70's for a satire called Reality Street), as much as a child's view of the neighborhood. The only real somber/ serious moments on the show were Hooper's death, two Hurricanes, and the small fire at Hooper's store. Mainly, the only real problems they face are Cookie Monster losing cookies, or Grover not being able to get something right. After all, it's mainly for kids, so things have to be lighter.

So I say, introduce a human with the disease, let him stay on the show for a year or two, and have him move somewhere else before something bad happens.

I have no idea whose side I'm on here!

[SPECIAL ED]

how does a muppet catch aids?

[Drtooth]

Unclean sewing needles. Or maybe a bad felt transplant.

I dunno. This is a SERIOUS post!!!

[frogboy4]

Even Jerry Fallwell seems to be supporting the character (within the current context). Geez - of all people! And I think that says something! I'm just floored right now. This comes from the interview on Hardball with Chris Mathews on MSNBC/CNBC. Now I don't like Fallwell much (and that is not really the point) I just find it interesting he's on board.

[beaker]

good question...a muppet doesnt get HIV or any diseases, so im hoping this doesnt come to us sesame anytime soon. like i said, if they are gonan address the issue, it needs to be an actual example of something living with it.

Hey, speaking of a person on Sesame with AIDS, I saw they just came out with an Elmo's World playset with Mr. Noodle. I think if anything, Mr. Noodle is a great example of someone living with the disease that they could start with.

[Phillip Chapman]

According to Sesame Workshop in an e-mail I received today:

"There are NO CURRENT PLANS to introduce an HIV Positive Muppet on Sesame Street in the States or anywhere other than in South Africa. This idea came from our South African broadcast partner isolating a major problem for children in that country. We at the workshop have been innundated by press calls about this, all because of a misquote of Dr. Schneider in the original story."

[MuppetQuilter]

Okay, if Fallwell isn't offended by this it really must be tame. ;)

Seriously, this is what I see happening--

someone's cousin comes to visit (Zoe's or Gabby's-- whatever) and that cousin is HIV+ (remember-- no one is suggesting Sesame Street introduce a character with AIDS, just an HIV+ character and there is a big difference there). So we get a scene where the 'kids' (Big Bird, Elmo, Zoe, Telly...) are playing with the cousin. Maybe they're playing tag, whatever, it is an active game. The cousin gets tired or dizzy or an upset stomach-- nothing major but enough that cousin has to go sit down at a picnic table next to Hooper's. So a couple of Muppets go over, I'm thinking Zoe and Big Bird, maybe Elmo. They ask cousin what's wrong. Cousin explains that cousin has to take medicine and sometimes the medicine makes cousin a little sick or tired. Zoe asks if the cousin is sick and that is why cousin takes the medicine. Cousin says no, the medicine to keep cousin from getting sick because cousin can get sick more easily than most people. Zoe says okay. Then Elmo or Big Bird says something like, 'when I'm tired sometimes I like to color. Would you like to color?' They can all get crayons and start coloring pictures instead of running around.

A little later we can get a scene on the street where some people are looking at cousin, whispering and staying away from cousin. Zoe sees this and asks Maria what is up. Maria says that some people don't understand about cousin and they think they could get sick just from being near cousin. Zoe can then say 'they should ask cousin about it. Asking questions is a good way of finding something out.' Maria can say yes, if they talked to cousin they would find out they don't need to worry and they would find out what a nice person cousin is.

Maybe cousin would visit on Sesame Street for a couple more episodes before going home, but nothing else about HIV or AIDS would come up.

[monkeymuppet]

if you have aol, there is a message board you can go to about this. i dont know the address of it, but its called Sesame Street Opens Door to HIV Muppet.

Adios,
~Megan~

[Luke]

Yup the hospital setting was an entirely seperate issue, that was the whole point. Personally, i'm not afraid of kids learning anything, i'm just realising that at 4 years old a parent should have a lil' something to do with what their kids watch and be in on the discussion. I want them to be able to know when to switch off and back on again, so that the press uproar that it caused wouldn't encourage certain parents to switch off forever. I do agree that it would probably go over the heads of kids too young to understand - you certainly have a point there, but a parent still needs to be involved in the 'access' issue.

I know it (even though Phil has already pointed out this whole issue is a misquote) would be dealt with in good taste by the Sesame people, but some folks seem to talk round here like it should be thrust upon the kids whether the parents like it or not. Thats definitely not the way - i mean some parents might want their kids to learn about the human body but having Bert and Ernie doing a striptease would not be in everybody's tastes !!!!!!!

I actually tend to agree with Jessica that at least in the USA, it would be a lot more useful dealing with this at a slightly older age when the kids can begin to understand it and take it in properly rather than seeing some ambiguous reference just because a kids show wants to be groundbreaking.

I actually have my suspisions about South Africa anyhow - this was all the centrepiece of an Aids conference and they seem to have got the press they wanted out of it - i think maybe Sesame Workshop has been used as a 'puppet' by the goverment in this case.

[trekkie1701E]

I saw a few news stories yesterday concerning the new muppet and think adding an HIV positive character to Jim Henson's muppets is a great move!
I am physically disabled. While growing up, Sesame Street was a huge part of my life. I have a very soft spot in my heart for Jim Henson & all that he created. And As a disabled individual, I have a rather more sensitive perspective on this issue.
I don't know if the original creator of Sesame Street would have objected to a muppet with HIV. But, I "do" know that young kids from all walks of life have played on that street. This includes the physically handicapped.
"What?" you say. "Oh my God, 'disabled' people were on Sesame Street?" Well, yes. As a matter of fact they still are. In fact -- Hold onto your seat -- legendary "blind" singer Ray Charles once payed a visit!
My point? Just because a person has an "abnormality" doesn't mean he/she should be "innapropriate." Sesame Street has, for over thirty years, invited disabled people into their neighborhood. Has it caused harm? Not in the least. If anything, having disabled kids & adults on the show has helped in teaching young children to respect one another. It also shows them that disabled individuals have as much talent as you or I & that they are capable of so many things. Ray Charles can play the piano & sing very well. Who knew?:)
Why should an HIV positive muppet be any different? Many people have HIV anyway. The mesage of HIV is already transmitted to young children through television, school, etc. So Who better then Sesame Street -- An acclaimed educational program that has always dealt with sensitive issues in a very loving & fun manner -- to teach them to respect, say, an HIV positive classmate? The show would explain to them that nobody is less important and everybody should be treated the same.
Just as Sesame Street has always done.

Daniel
:)

[Special_Ed]

I don't think that this is a good idea to have an HIV infected Muppet on Sesame Street because this will open the door for a great deal of subject matter that little kids have no business getting into. It also worries me that this character could give the children the messages that "it's okay to contract HIV" and that defeats the entire prpose of the character.

Where will this end? Will there be gay role model muppets and sex education muppets? Why can't we just let kids be kids and not try to force the world's problems on them at such a tender young age? This sort of thing is up to the parents, not entertainers. People in this forum seem to thing that it's the other way around, but since when is TV a replacement for good parenting? I think that it's sad that some people seem to think oterwise.

- Ed

[furryfella]

ITA trekkie!! they Just had a report on www.foxnews.com about the hiv muppet!! IMO i think IT's great that they are explorering something different!!:D

[MuppetQuilter]

First off, thanks for the clarification, Phillip!

Second, Sesame Street has always had a social agenda. From the start, the social 'issues' were as important as the ABCs and learning to count. Actually, learning to count in English and Spanish is a form of social programing. Showing people of different races and ethnicities living and working together-- in harmony-- was a huge part of the initial Sesame Street concept and that was controversial and a very big deal at the time. Unfortunatley, it is still pretty rare. Teaching kids to share and cooperate is social programing. Showing that a little girl in a wheel chair is still a little girl with all the same needs and wants as any other kid is social programing. Having Linda on the show is social programing. A story where a baby is adopted is social programing. So to say Sesame Street should avoid HIV because it is social programming is to miss one of the most important aspects of the show.

I respect the opinions of those who think this is an inappropriate topic for young kids. Everyone has a right to their opinion and to express it.

However, I think this is completely appropriate. I do not think it would open the door to a discussion of STDs or how to avoid them. I think it would teach an important lesson about fear of the unknown and the importance of education before judgement. I do not think it would diminish the innocence of childhood. I think it is the very innocence of early childhood that would make this work so well-- kids wouldn't get caught up in bizarre notions about HIV being a punishment or any of that sort of rubbish, they would simply recognize that it is wrong to treat someone poorly because they have the potential to become sick.

Anyway, the HIV issue appears to be mute for American Sesame Street. I hope that changes, but that's just my view, as a parent and a sociologist.

As for a gay character on Sesame Street-- I say bring it on!!!! Of course it would be a human, Sesame Street Muppets are too young for that sort of thing. I would love to see a gay couple on Sesame Street. It's long over due. I know, lots of people will disagree with me, but I believe there is room in this world for all of us and we should respect each other's choices, not dictate how others should live. Acceptance, tollerance, and respect have long been a part of Sesame Street and those concepts don't just apply to sharing toys and racial diversity. I don't expect this to happen anytime soon, but I sure hope it comes along in the next decade or so.

[radionate]

Hey All,

I was greated by a surprise when I got into the station today, news reports out the wazoo on this. Here are two transcripts:

HIV Muppet Reax w/audio

(New York, NY) -- A HIV-positive Muppet is about to debut on the South African version of "Sesame Street. " Kermit the Frog says he is pleased with the addition and adds that "Sesame Street" is about educating all types of children.

{HIVKermit1} Q...to do it :10.7

The unnamed character, which is still without a final color or form, will be an upbeat female Muppet and will join the cast for the show's third season on the South African Broadcasting Corporation. Joel Schneider, vice president and senior adviser to the Sesame Street Workshop, says "not every program will deal explicitly with HIV/AIDS. We want to show that here is an HIV-positive member of our community who you can touch and interact with."

There is a clip of Steve (as Kermit) being interviewed about it. He sounds VERY FLUSTERED. It is also obviously outside as there are car noises in the background. I have no way of uplifting this to the web, I'm sorry, but here's as close to a transcript of him as I can do (stumbles are also added so you get the general drift):

"I haven't met that character yet, but uh, , I think its ahhh, I think its a nice idea. You know we've been, uh, we've been educating kids about all kinds of things for lots of years...so um.... you know, any way that we can help we're happy to do it.

[radionate]

Here's the second story:

(New York, NY) -- The South African version of "Sesame Street" will be getting a new character. The unnamed character, which is still without a final color or form, will be an upbeat female Muppet that is HIV positive. Parents Television Council spokesperson Brent Bozell says the move is exposing kids to too much information too soon.

The vice president and senior adviser to the Sesame Street Workshop says "not every program will deal explicitly with HIV/AIDS," and they will "be very careful" to fashion messages appropriately to the age group.
___________________

The sound clip is basically Mr. Bozell saying that even now S.S. is playing games with children in regards that children aren't allowed to be children anymore. If anyone really really wants me to type out the sound byte I will, but post quickly as I leave the station in a little over an hour!

[Luke]

Originally posted by radionate
There is a clip of Steve (as Kermit) being interviewed about it. He sounds VERY FLUSTERED. It is also obviously outside as there are car noises in the background

Sounds like because the story has broke tabloid media in the states some cunning journo has made his way to the Henson offices for a quote. Poor Steve, having to get into Kermit mode and Henson don't even own Sesame now. I guess he might have got lampooned outside because i doubt the press office would have let Kermit I/V on this because the facts are so up in the air.

As for the UK - apparently we don't care as much. it got 2 lines in the most popular papers today.

[Special_Ed]

Mister Muppet Quilter

Why should a gay couple be on Sesame Street when gay people make up less than 3% of the total US population? Why should this liberal agenda be crammed down the throats of innocent children? You stated that the Muppets are too young for that sort of thing, so why would the children watching the show not be considered too young to watch this on the show, by your very own standards?

What next, a murder or child molestor on Sesame Street, who must be accepted for being a sicko? What a joke! I don't recall many religous groups being depicted on Sesame Street either, which seems like this would be an alley they'd try to persue after the anti arab attitude after 9/11. In recent years even Christian groups are met up with intolerant attitudes, but no one seems to care about this group. A gay couple on Sesame street, what a silly silly idea....

[trekkie1701E]

Special_Ed & other anti-disabled-muppet people:

Part of my disability has to do w/continually attrophying muscles. My guess is that many of the disabled kids on Sesame Street have this, too. Why is having the HIV disease different from deteriorating muscles? They're "both" diseases & they both force challenges onto the people who have them.

Young children who watch Sesame Street "need" to learn respect. They "need" to learn how "not" to be afraid. If the street ever decides to add a gay couple to its residency, so be it. I don't care if parents are against gays. Everybody should be treated equal; and that's that. Unfortunately, there are people in this world who don't agree. Well, those people don't have to watch Sesame Street!

I don't want to "force" anyone to watch the show, only to gag whenever they see somebody in a wheelchair or using a walker.

Daniel:)

[frogboy4]

It is fine to express your opinions on the board but name-calling is certainly not. Please refrain from doing so in the future. This board is made up of all sorts of people and such talk has no place here.

[trekkie1701E]

I didn't realize that it was an offending name. Sorry

Daniel:)

[Wozza Fraggle]

Originally posted by Special_Ed

Why should a gay couple be on Sesame Street when gay people make up less than 3% of the total US population? Why should this liberal agenda be crammed down the throats of innocent children? ....

What next, a murder or child molestor on Sesame Street, who must be accepted for being a sicko?...


I think you need to think about what your saying...

see ya

[frogboy4]

Oh...you certainly did not offend anyone. I was posing to the new "ED" member.

[trekkie1701E]

Oh, alright. I didn't think "Anti-disabled-muppet-people" was offending. Glad you didn't, either!

Daniel:)

[radionate]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Why should a gay couple be on Sesame Street when gay people make up less than 3% of the total US population? Why should this liberal agenda be crammed down the throats of innocent children? You stated that the Muppets are too young for that sort of thing, so why would the children watching the show not be considered too young to watch this on the show, by your very own standards?I don't even know if I should dignify this ludicrious post with a response. But I think its hypocritical to replace one agenda for another, as it seems to me you have your own agenda. Step back a minute and think about what you posted above, think about, and tell me if you don't see how absoultly insane it sounds. Sexual Offenders? Come on. Perhapes you would have learned a valuable lesson as a child if you had watched S.S. What lesson might that be? Love thy fellow man.

[Special_Ed]

Mister Frog boy,

Who did I call a name? I only addressed the the Muppet Quilter by their ID so you would know to whom my post was addressing.

For Mister Trekkie.

The difference betwen a musculer disease and HIV is that HIV is a sexually transmitted disease. and MSD is not. Why do you assume that people who are anti gay are "afraid" of something? We are not afraid of anything. When something is morally wrong and we state that it is some people seem to think that it's out of fear. It's not, it's out of the simple knowledge of what is right and wrong.

For Warrick and Radiationate,

I have no agenda. I am a writer and creator of family entertainment and I assure you there is no "hidden agenda" in anything that I produce. I refuse to incorporate things like that into my own work and it's sad when others seem to feel the need to.

Sesame Street is a very popular children/family program and therefore makes a juicy spring board to unleash hidden agendas to brainwash children into accepting corrupt and morally wrong information.

You read me right, sexual offenders. Why shouldn't we accept their lifestyle if we are to accept all life styles? Use your own logic and see what my point is.

I did watch Sesame Street as a child, and no I did not think that Bert & Ernie were gay. It's obvious that they are friends!

I do love thy fellow man, but I do not approve of some of the things that they do. Does that make be bad? Well if it does in your eyes then so be it. Are you going to love me anyway? Hmm...very doubtful.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
When something is morally wrong and we state that it is some people seem to think that it's out of fear. It's not, it's out of the simple knowledge of what is right and wrong.

You seem to be anti-gay here, but HIV isn't "a gay thing"---that was just one of the first groups it showed up in. It affects people from all walks of life, and is sad and terrible. And homosexuality isn't even an issue with the SS tie-in to South Africa, from what I've skimmed over so far.

And since when is it "corrupt and morally wrong" for people to have this thing called compassion? I love God, love my church, but we don't bash gay people. Do you think Jesus would have done that? No. Jesus was about love and compassion. I and others believe that Jesus would have embraced gay people, since they are condemned by some others. That's what Jesus did, He welcomed all to His arms, and frequently spent time with those whom "normal" people despised, condemned, and practiced prejudice against. We need to teach our children to love, not hate. Otherwise, the behavior is the opposite of Christian love.

And only ignorance causes people to place gays in the same groups as murderers and child molestors. The very terms "murderer" and "child molestor" indicate conscious decisions to hurt others, and frequently. A gay person just happens to be attracted to their own gender---waaaaaaay different ballpark; you couldn't be in further directions here. Besides, being gay isn't a choice. In fact, I doubt most people would choose that lifestyle. Therefore, compassion is needed if we wanna make the world more peaceful and stop the madness that happens.

[Luke]

Actually, i do to an extent agree with Special Ed, and i also notice that some people are getting very jumpy here that things might not be going along so politically correctly here.

While i don't particularly agree with the use of 'sex offenders' or 'gay people' as examples i do get the point behind it that was being made. I actually agree that we shouldn't be thrusting these 'agendas' down Kids throats, especially as most of them will be too young to really get the points. They never did this kinda thing when i was young, we watched happy educational TV shows hearing stories and learning to spell - why on Earth at that age should it be upto a TV show to teach a kid the ways of the world, or about sexually transmitted things, or about sex education. Years ago, this was something parents decided to tackle with their kids and i expect most used their judgement to do a pretty good job. Why should parents get off easy and let some TV show take over their responsibilities ? I turned out fine (ok, maybe thats questionable) and my parents taught me this kinda thing, and anything more than that at school was done at an age where i could understand things properly.

I have to say, knowing the TV industry VERY well, i don't think the productions companies who introduce these kinda things are really doing this just for the kids education. I think to a point it is just part of the 'points scoring' that goes on between politicians, TV channels and new age educational people. It looks so good on them and they get good publicity when they do something 'groundbreaking' and are seen to be of a higher educational standard than their rivals. Sesame Street's popularity has been flagging all over the world for a long time now and it seems to me that this could be the work of liberal new-age style producers who just want to be known as the person in the industry who was 'the one who wrote the HIV Muppet into Sesame Street'.

It does trouble me that it seems certain very liberal members of the group seem to feel that there is something 'wrong' with any parent who objected to their child being subjected to this storyline. It goes further that in some places they seem to suggest that it shouldn't be upto parents and should just be included in the show without any indication and people just have to live with it. I really don't think it should be the case that parents opinions are cut out of this just because you personally want to see this introduced to Sesame Street.

[EmmyMik]

While I think that it's great that this character will be introduced in South America, I think that it's terrible that it has come to this. It's hard to imagine that millions of innocent people have lost, and will lose their lives to this disease. Hopefully this character will be able to inspire those children who have HIV/AIDS, and possibly teach acceptance to those who do not.

As for having a character who is HIV positive in the US version, I don't know. I would have no problem if this were to happen, but it might be too ambitious. I remember when I was younger there were a lot of diseases that scared me. Things like asthma, diabetes, and HIV (I remember when Magic Johnson announced that he was HIV positive). They scared me because I had no idea what they were, and if/how I could catch them. I could see Sesame Street introducing a character that has something like asthma, diabetes, HIV, or something else, and that character can show "I have this disease, I won't get better, but see what I can do?"

But that's just my two cents...

[Special_Ed]

Janice & Monkey man,

I never said I hate gay people, I said what they did was morally wrong. You love people and hate the sin. Your arguement that Jesus socialized with sinners is very true, but it was not because He embraced their sins as being just choices, He mingled with them in order to bring them to salvation.

Being gay is a choice and not a birth defect. Your arguement about "why would anyone choose that lifestyle" is very week. We can apply this arguement to many other groups, why would any group chose to rebel against their Government and be called traitors and face a death penalty? Yet that has happened at least twice in American History alone. Why would anyone embrace religious views that would condemn them to death by the majority, yet we see this happen throughout the world on a daily basis. Claiming that no one would chose a lifestyle for what they believe in is ludicrous.


Luke,

Very good points. I will further your comments by saying that I feel that a lot of the problems we currently have in this country, such as the HIV explosion, is because of these media outlets and educators cramming sexual education down the throats of children at younger and younger ages. Soon after this happened there was an explosion in children engaging in sexual activity. Liberals may laugh, but it's true. We've never had such wide spread open sexual activity among young people in history.

I don't see why some groups feel the need to take things out of the parents' hands and try to tackle it themself. I think they know very well that this kind of education causes young people to experiment because there have been numerous cases that went to court where Public School districts would not allow parents or even a church of the parents' chosing teach this stuff to the children as an alternative to public schools.

Also, a few months ago, to deal with the recent rash of school shootings, a New York City Rabbi proposed a campaign for Public Schools to teach gun education to students. The liberals and school officals complained that this would cause more children to use guns. Why is it any different than sex education?

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
I never said I hate gay people, I said what they did was morally wrong. You love people and hate the sin. Your arguement that Jesus socialized with sinners is very true, but it was not because He embraced their sins as being just choices, He mingled with them in order to bring them to salvation.

I see what you're saying, but unfortunately, your ignorance seems too big for you to get around. Being gay is clearly NOT a choice. None whatsoever. Your argument is coming off as weak, because whether you are gay, straight, or bisexual depends on your hormones, not your mental strategies.

Have you never seen or heard of gay people struggling with themselves and in tears over their lifestyle, because they are opressed by their friends or family? And for what---something that is not under their control at all. You can't control what your hormones attract you to, and I believe most gay people would give anything to not be gay, and not be opressed by society.

That is what is ludicrous. Being gay is not "something to believe in", it's a fact of life, and always has been among some people. When you hear someone break down and confide in you what a torture is to feel those feelings, then maybe you'll understand that there is indeed no such thing as "choice". Overthrowing a government, yes. Sexuality, no.

[MuppetQuilter]

Muppet Central is a diverse community made up of people from a wide variety of backgrounds and who embrace a variety of lifestyles. There is room here for everyone, so long as we all respect one another and one another's choices.

Disagreements are inevitable. Debate is at the heart of the MC Forum. As a community, it is imperative that we chose our words carefully and remember that our beliefs may not be the beliefs of others.

Trekkie-- thanks for joining the discussion and sharing your experiences. Sesame Street has long made a habit of including children and adults with disablities and it is one of the things I love about the show.

[Luke]

Hey Byron,

I'm not so sure that i would agree that all gay people have not chosen that way of life - not that i'm saying there aren't plenty in the position you describe who have just found themselves having discovered those 'feelings' but i'm sure there are others who may have been influenced by the people in the social groups around them to make this choice, or even there are many cases of straight males going to prison and leaving as homosexuals after either mixing with gay males for the first time or even in much serious cases being raped. Saying most gay people would prefer not to be gay may be a little strong too - i'm sure there are a large percentage who are very proud to be gay but again, i get your point.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

I see what you're sayin', Luke...it's just that I've heard many say they would definitely not to choose to be that way. I know there's gay pride things and stuff, and that largely stems from opression of society. But I see what you're sayin', too. :)

[FellowWLover]

At the risk of bringing on the wrath... I most certainly believe that there are three categories (maybe more, but at least these three) of "gay" folks...

One that consists of people that are born, genetically or whatever, GAY... these people certainly do not choose to be homosexual; they may or may not be proud and may or may not embrace the lifestyle, but they did not choose it. They simply are gay by right of birth.

The second group, IMO, either through choice or circumstance "become" gay due to life events, whatever they may be (I hear your prison example, but think that might be a little far-fetched). I am thinking of women with nothing but abusive relationships with men (from father to suitor), or men with twisted maternal relationships... not just these examples, but a variety and volume of experiences which lead a person to "become" homosexual.

The third group would be those who dabble in homosexuality for whatever reason. I think these people are choosing to be gay to satisfy curiosity or fashion. Some of these folks may be gay for spite, as an act of defiance, or for pure shock value.

Before anyone over-reacts, let me say that, yes, I do have extensive experience with the gay community, and no, I do not believe any of the three aformentioned categories of gay people should be discriminated against.

[trekkie1701E]

Special_Ed said:
<I refuse to incorporate things like that into my own work and it's sad when others seem to feel the need to>

Why does educating children about a disease constitute "sad"? Yes, HIV is an STD. But, Sesame Street won't portray it that way. All the show will do is teach viewers that HIV is a sickness, but not one that people should be afraid of. It will teach kids to respect and embrace their fellow peers, instead of shunning/neglecting them.

As for gay people, I am a huge fan of Rosie O'Donnell. She is, and always has been, a very loving person. In addition to founding the FOR ALL KIDS FOUNDATION, which has raised millions of $$ through ebay, she donated the majority of proceeds from her show to charity. She has also attended tons of fundraisers. And she is always willing to sign autographs.
And She "is" a christian.

So ... I don't believe that Rosie O'Donnell is guilty of anything. She is very charitable, extremely gifted and she loves all children. However, despite all this, some people believe that Rosie being gay is cause enough for her to forever be a sinner. I don't believe this. Some people do. It's fine! You either believe it's wrong or you don't. Just like Christianity itself.

Daniel:)

[trekkie1701E]

One more thing I forgot to mention; Remember when Mr. Hooper died? Sesame Street writers & producers went to child psychiatrists for help on what to do. Two things that should not happen; Don't say that Hooper died in the hospital and don't say that he went away on a long trip. It was finally decided that Sesame Street would just be straight-forward and totally honest about Mr. Hooper's death.
I have a feeling that they'll be just as honest about HIV (W/out the muppet saying, "HIV is caused by having sex. Sex happens when..." :) )

Daniel:)

[frogboy4]

Special_Ed

Calling gay people "sicko" is certainly name-calling in my book and relating them to murderers and child molesters is not only extreme, it is hurtful. It is not necessary to do that in order to get your point across.

It is also important to note that when posting you are stating your opinion and not a moral absolute. They are your adopted beliefs - your lifestyle choice no matter how absolute you feel they happen to be.

I feel the reason that so many people want to drum spirituality out of public functions is because of radical religious folk who try to impose their beliefs others. I actually think the elimination of spirituality is a horrible trend happening in this country. Can't we all get along no matter what our background differences and cut out the condemnation-speech?

There really is no agenda here. Just teaching kids tolerance - not sex or homosexuality. HIV in children is mainly contracted from the parent. I am sure there are no plans to introduce a gay Muppet and no sexuality to be discussed with the new South African one. Much of this talk really seems moot to me.

To All

I think that Jessica is kind of right although the majority of gay people I know have the same story of "always knowing it". I don't see why this has become a gay discussion. This is about a female Muppet in South Africa who is going to teach children tolerance while representing the 1 in 9 infected with HIV over there.

Muppet or Man

I actually think that if a US character is introduced it should be a real kid who is moderately healthy and coping with the disease. This would certainly go over better than a Muppet in my opinion. I also wouldn't mind in the future if children with other diseases appeared on the program and informed kids.

Geez - I’d rather talk about action figures now!

[MuppetQuilter]

Well said, Jamie!

It's funny, this all got started over a miss quote in the original announcement of an HIV+ Muppet on Sesame in South Africa. The media has gone a little nuts with it. Poor Steve Whitmire was probably blindsided by the reporter who talked to him-- after all, what connection does Steve have with a show produced on the other side of the world? We're still debating the pros and cons of all this in terms of the American Sesame Street, when it has been clearly stated there are no plans to introduce an HIV+ anything.

But I'm almost caught up on the Ask Ken thread, how about we talk about something else for just a little longer so I have a chance to get completely caught up on the action figures? Anyone want to join me at the MuppetFest 2003 discussion?

[Special_Ed]

Janice & Monkey man,

Being gay is a choice. It is learned behavior, it is a sexual fetish and nothing more. There are also numerous examples of people who have swung back, and if it a birth deffect, as you so claim, why is it so wide spread now and not so much so a few generations ago. You also mentioned that these people struggled with their lifestyle, but so do child molstors. They know it's wrong and try to stay on the right path, but sometimes they still give into the urge to do the wrong thing. Would you claim that they are born that way as well? Get real.

Trekkie,

"Yes, HIV is an STD. But, Sesame Street won't portray it that way. "

I had to post youir quote here, what is the point of talking about it if you're not going to discuss it thuroghly? That's why I saw leave it alone all together.

Your Rosie O'Donnell arguement is weak. Just because someone does many good things it does not eliminate a wrong deed. Take the reverse side of the coin, if someone does many evil deeds and one good deed does that mean they are now a good person? She obviously can not be a very good Christian if she isn't living the teachings of the Bible, the book at the center of that religion. I know all about this Rosie O'Donnell arguement because my aunt is gay, a huge Rosie fan, and a similar person. It doesn't work.

I remember watching when Mr. Hooper died. How is this like HIV or a gay muppet? Death is a more important part of life because we all must die someday, and many children have family members who die when they are young. Knowing what they died of is not important.

Frogboy,

Everything I say is a moral absolute. THis garbage about "Situational ethics" is insane and another reason why people have no idea what is right or wrong anymore. They get this Situational ethics stuff crammed down their throats and they can't decide on anything anymore.

Try reading the writings of the founding fathers and see what they thought about spirituality. THis stuff about "a seperation between Church and State" is a total myth and out right lie. Go and read what these men REALLY wrote and you'll see how greatly misquoted they are today. There are so many cases of things they've said being represented in misleading ways by the media that it's unreal.

You can teach tolerence, but you don't have specifically target every type of tolerence. Tolerence is tolerence, whay more do you need to discuss with children?


We got on the gay discussion when The Muppet Quilter said to bring on a gay muppet.

[frogboy4]

All this is your opinion stated as fact. Stating that everything you have said is a moral absolute is virtually claiming that you are God himself and would be laughable if there weren't so much venom in your statements. Calling being gay a fetish or birth defect is insulting and continuing to relate them to child molesters is unacceptable. I have made the appropriate grievances and will post to you no further. I really hope to never hear from you on the board but also know that will not erase the hatred, ignorance and condescension in your heart. I will not read or reply to future posts. You obviously have no respect for you common man. Not very Christ-like in my eyes.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Being gay is a choice. It is learned behavior, it is a sexual fetish and nothing more. There are also numerous examples of people who have swung back, and if it a birth deffect, as you so claim, why is it so wide spread now and not so much so a few generations ago. You also mentioned that these people struggled with their lifestyle, but so do child molstors. They know it's wrong and try to stay on the right path, but sometimes they still give into the urge to do the wrong thing. Would you claim that they are born that way as well? Get real.

I am real. I am in touch with the world and people. You are assuming too much, thinking that being gay is a complete choice. If that were so, some gay people would not be torn over it---I already mentioned that above, including how hormones are uncontrollabe (just sounds like you forgot what I wrote or didn't bother to read). You like what you like.

And yes I've heard of people who have swung back, and I believe that is possible for those people who did experience their sexuality as a learned behavior, or the only environment they knew.

Also, please do not misquote me. I didn't say being gay is a birth defect, you said that. That is just an insult to that community. It is a sexual orientation for most, not any sort of defect or preference.

You obviously don't know a great deal about sexuality in general if you believe that homosexuality is a "fetish". A fetish is having to include a specific body part or an inanimate object in foreplay or intercourse. That has nothing to do with homosexuality.

And since when are all child molestors conscientious people who feel bad about what they do? Not the ones I've seen on the news...you just keep missing points by bigger and bigger ballparks...

[Luke]

Originally posted by MuppetQuilter
But I'm almost caught up on the Ask Ken thread, how about we talk about something else for just a little longer so I have a chance to get completely caught up on the action figures? Anyone want to join me at the MuppetFest 2003 discussion?

Originally posted by frogboy4
I will not read or reply to future posts.


Hey Guys,

Why am i getting this sudden vibe that everyone wants to run away and talk about something else when things get a little controversial ?

Like it or not, Special Ed isn't alone - there are plenty of people in this world who share the same kind of opinions and not saying they are right, but he does have some very valid (albeit very right wing) opinions. With regards to the 'gay' thing there are certainly many Christian and other religious groups around who feel that being gay is 'dirty' or that the person has been 'bad' in their life to bring that on them. I'm not saying these groups are in the majority, or that they're right but they are certainly out there and spreading their views in a free country.

Lets not forget it was Muppetquilter who asked why they shouldn't introduce a gay Muppet and she has a point. While i'm not relating disease to gay people, or saying that they are anything like the same kind of thing - they are both controversial topics for a childrens show to consider introducing, and thus both very valid for discussion here. You can bet your bottom dollar that both 'homosexuality' and 'HIV' share a place on producers lists of ideas for kids shows around the country..... even if they don't make it to air.

I do agree that Special Ed is sailing a little close to the wind in some places but i also don't see the need to pack up and move out of the thread. If you don't agree with whats being said, this is your chance to air your views and stick up for your beliefs - it's good to see most people doing that and for once we are getting our teeth into a meaty topic that is now being discussed in the mainstream media too.

Personally i think we need to move beyond JUST action figures, and Muppetfest Spring 2003 is definitely not a 'given'. They no more have that planned than Muppetfest Autumn 2002 - it's way too early and really depends on what happens within the company. It was a little misleading to make some kind of 'event announcement' although i know it was with good intentions. They HOPE to hold an event sometime early'ish next year, and i hope that i get to shower with Britney Spears - but if Disney buys my butt, that won't be happening either !

[FellowWLover]

... for once we are getting our teeth into a meaty topic that is now being discussed in the mainstream media too.

I agree! This has been the most interesting topic to hit the forum since the inception of the "new MC". I will never understand why so many people here seem to feel that we must all be on the same page with every topic. While his opinion may be distasteful to some (or even most), Special_Ed has not resorted to personal attacks or other flaming activities that should result in making the "appropriate grievances". IMO, we shouldn't be able to get rid of someone simply because we dislike them, or what they have to say (within the confines of civil discussion).

[radionate]

First off, everyone please excuse any typos. I am really upset right now. I also wish I was a more eligant speaker, but unfortunatly I am not, but here goes my best attempt.

Originally posted by Special_Ed
For Radiationate,
Sesame Street is a very popular children/family program and therefore makes a juicy spring board to unleash hidden agendas to brainwash children into accepting corrupt and morally wrong information. I do love thy fellow man, but I do not approve of some of the things that they do. Does that make be bad? Well if it does in your eyes then so be it. Are you going to love me anyway? Hmm...very doubtful.

Being gay is a choice and not a birth defect.


First off, I'd like to make a point here. Where did it say anywhere that this character would have contracted HIV/AIDS through homosexual contact? My god, most likely this Muppet will be "preschool aged". Therefore how can involving a storyline about its illness translate into a "gay agenda"????? It didn't get it from sexual contact with a member of its same sex. That isn't the only form of this disease, in fact heterosexual contact of the disease has been on a increase of late. Most likely it will be handled very delicately, to let children know that not all diseases are contagious, and they don't need to fear contact with people with cancer or AIDS, as there is no way to contact it from touch. I can't believe that anyone would interpret that as a "gay agenda". Give me a friggen break will ya!

Do I love my fellow man? Yes I do. Do I approve of everything that people do, gay or straight? Do I agree with everyone's viewpoints, gay or straight? Do I get along with everyone, gay or straight? The answer to the last three questions is of course No. But I respect their individuality, as this is America. I am greatful that we are all allowed the freedom of choice of religion, thought, politics, sexual orientation, etc. If not, this world would be a boring place. I'm also thankful that I'm living in America in 2001 for another reason. Why is that? Because I am a gay male, and am free of prosecution from religious fanatics. I have no fear of being executed for being the person that God or whatever higher being you may or may not believe in made me. Did I choose this lifestyle? No. Is it a birth defect? No more so then stupid ignorant people who claim it is. It took me twenty something years to accept who I am, and 26 years to finally admit it out loud. I, like anyone else gay or straight, am learning who I am every day and growing as a human being every day. That's why we are put on this earth, to grow as individuals and not lay stagnate in our lifetimes. But let me tell you something, I pride myself on being courteous and respectful of individuals who live on this planet. If I don't want to be chastised, why should I do so to someone else.

So have you learned something MR. SPECIAL ED? I do love you as a human, and hope you live your life as a decent human being. Will you believe that, hmmmm.....very doubtful.

[Hays]

Unfortunately, I think that Special Ed's post has come to the heart of the matter. It breaks my own heart that people who are trying to do the right thing can be so mislead about personal freedoms. Sesame Street has always taught tolerance of differences, a value that is central to the American way of life. Somehow, this tolerance needs to include people we don't agree with as well as people whose freedoms we want to protect.

That being said, I think discussions about sexuality and disease should be on a need-to-know basis with toddlers. I liked the scenario MuppetQuilter posted, because kids will probably run into someone who needs medicine on a regular basis (HIV, diabetes, asthma, high blood pressure, and the list goes on.) They do need to know how to treat sick kids with tolerance. They also need to know to treat different kinds of couples and families with tolerance. More specifics I think would be cruel.

Although I agree that someone who actually has HIV might be a better choice, I think it's not need-to-know information. I don't tell my toddler that his grandfather has emphesema, or that his grandmother has high blood pressure - it's not important right now. What's important is that Grandpa sometimes needs his inhaler, and Grammy has to rest sometimes. Toddlers have very active imaginations - and, while it's a quality I like to foster, I don't want to fill my son's head with frightening thoughts about mortality and illness, even if those are facts of life.

[frogboy4]

My grievance was certainly not with Ed's opinions, but how disrespectfully he stated them even after he was told it was offensive. It's fine to have your beliefs, but there can be no dialogue without mutual respect therefore I refuse to post to him. I have also said all I can on the subject really. I feel you guys have gone a little far in your posts, but not over the line. Ed leaves little room for discussion.

However, I will make one final statement to all in this thread. Until you walk in someone else’s skin you cannot truly understand them. Simple, but true. People will choose to hate or be condescending to others for any reason. If they don't have one, they'll simply make one up. I don't need to fight others to prove my existence. I'm quite content, I do exist and others should just get used to it because the tide of acceptance will not likely change back. Thank God!

[FellowWLover]

While I am not defending Special_Ed's point of view (which would not be my place, and while I personally disagree with some of his points, is still his opinion, and does not really bear defending anyway), he did not call gay people "sickos"...

What next, a murder or child molestor on Sesame Street, who must be accepted for being a sicko?

This is the statement to which I think you are referring. While his example is IMO in poor taste, he was not disrespectful to members of this forum. Plain truth? You told him that he was being offensive (which is your opinion), but what you really object to is his point of view... his posts were not, in themselves, incendiary.

[frogboy4]

I have to respond to this post because it simply isn't true.

Ed lumped murderers and molesters into the same group as gay people and called them all sickos.

You can battle over semantics all you want but I stated the facts without spin.

Ed stated that his views were moral certainties rather than opinion and continued to condemn people as sinners etc. Jesus stated that it is no man's place to point out sins of others and this guy has done just that.

No, I don't like what he said but it was the disrespect that was truly offensive - even after he knew it was hurting people. He unapologetically crossed a line and I feel there is no talking to someone with that level of disrespect no matter what his views.

[Special_Ed]

Frogboy,

Saying that there are moral absolutes does not mean that I'm saying I set them, there are universal absolutes and the absolutes set in the Bible. In recent times it has become a "dirty concept" to call something what it is. It wasn't my judgement call, it was God's. There is a difference between respect and intolerence, why do you seem to think they are the same thing? I can respect people as people, I just don't agree with things that they do.

Janice & Frogboy,

I believe it was Janice who claimed these people were born gay, but Frogboy addressed this too, so I"m answering you both now. I use the term "birth defect" because, and even you admitted, it was against the norm. When people are born with something wroing with them physically or mentally we call it a birth defect, what's wrong with calling homosexuality a birth defect as well? I was using your thought process there.

A fetish is anything that turns someone on sexually. There really are some strange ones out there too. The only reason some gay people are torn over it is because they know that it is morally wrong. It's the same debate over commiting a crime if it benifits someone, does that make it a crime, etc. A crime is a crime, a sin is a sin.

There are child molestors, pediphiles, and murderers who are always at conflict with what they do. They know it is wrong but yet they do it. It's an example to illustrate my point.

Luke,

I enjoy your comments, you sound like a great person to debate with on many subjects. I think that the reason why people get defensive and nasty when subjects like these come up is because they are afraid to have their beliefs challenged and maybe even swayed to a different point of view.

I would, however, like to clarify that I do not feel that a person has been bad to bring on a gay lifestyle, I"ve actually never heard of that concept before. By judging from the scriptures I feel that it's a sin, just like any other sin. All sins are equal, and therefore I have no qualms of comparing sins with sins, and it's usually the first ones that come to mind.

I was never relating HIV to gay people, I always saw this topic as being along the same path as the HIV infected character. Once they do this a gay character is not far behind. I think we agree on this point.

Luke & Fellowlover,

I have remained civil and respectful in all of my posts and will continue to be so, no matter how hostile people reat me for these views.

Radionate,

1.) I never made a connection between HIV and gay people. I believe I said that this would open the door for that to be the next step. Muppet Qulter said that he'd like to see a gay character on the show and that is how is discussion began.

2.) This country was founded by what you would consider to be "religious fanatics" but they never executed gays. THat is a myth. If you look at American History the founding fathers founded America as a Christian Nation and this meant that Christianity dictated all forms of government (and this was upheld by the SUpreme Court until the 1960's!) Even with this strong religious attitude the founding fathers allowed other religions and credes to settle here for they were loving their neighbor as they loved themself, even though they did not believe in many of the things that these people reprsented.

3.) Whn you stait that it took you 20 years to figure out you were gay you are proving my point, people are not born gay, they just decide one day that that's the lifestyle for them. You know what else? All homosexual periodicals printed until the early 1980's PROUDLY PROCLAIMED that homosexuality was a choice and one that they took pride in making. It was not until the mid 80's that the tune changed to "This is a birth defect."


Hays,

That is what I was saying in an earlier post. There are specifics that young children just do not need to know because their minds are not rady for them.


Frogboy,

"Until you walk in someone else’s skin you cannot truly understand them"

Yet you call me disrespectful and offensive, but say I need to spend a day in someone's shoes to understand them. Why aren't you holding this same rule true about myself and my views? It seems one sided to me.

Fellowlover,

Thanks for showing that. It saves me the trouble.

Frogboy,

Jesus said not to specifically judge a perso of sin, not to judge an action as a sin. I have only stated actions that are sins, not anyone who has committed them. With your spin, nothing would be wrong and there would be no way to hve morals, aka situational ethics. That is not what the BIble teaches at all. I also do not aplogize when I have done or said nothing wrong.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
I believe it was Janice who claimed these people were born gay, but Frogboy addressed this too, so I"m answering you both now. I use the term "birth defect" because, and even you admitted, it was against the norm. When people are born with something wroing with them physically or mentally we call it a birth defect, what's wrong with calling homosexuality a birth defect as well? I was using your thought process there.

What's wrong is that it can be insulting to people. I've worked with deaf people and many of them consider it a tasteless insult to say that their deafness is a "birth defect".

A fetish is anything that turns someone on sexually. There really are some strange ones out there too. The only reason some gay people are torn over it is because they know that it is morally wrong. It's the same debate over commiting a crime if it benifits someone, does that make it a crime, etc. A crime is a crime, a sin is a sin.

I told you what a fetish was, but I don't know whether you don't read posts entirely or just have "selected reading". I repeat, from the dictionary:

"an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression"

Therefore, "anything that turns someone on sexually" is not a fetish. I just hope you come to understand this.

And no, there are other reasons some gay people are torn over their orientation. Some of society is cruel to them, and they wish they could just "fit in" with everyone, not only some. Actions are sins, feelings are not (notice I said feelings, and not thoughts).

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
3.) Whn you stait that it took you 20 years to figure out you were gay you are proving my point, people are not born gay, they just decide one day that that's the lifestyle for them.

I know Nate can handle his own battles, but I don't like to see people misquoted. He didn't say it took him 20 years to figure out he was gay, he said it took him 20-something years to accept who he was. That's a big difference. I could go on, but I'm sure he'll reply in his own words.

[beaker]

...hmmm, i guess toughpigs forum isnt the only adults only muppet forum now!

[EmmyMik]

Your Rosie O'Donnell arguement is weak. Just because someone does many good things it does not eliminate a wrong deed. Take the reverse side of the coin, if someone does many evil deeds and one good deed does that mean they are now a good person? She obviously can not be a very good Christian if she isn't living the teachings of the Bible, the book at the center of that religion. I know all about this Rosie O'Donnell arguement because my aunt is gay, a huge Rosie fan, and a similar person. It doesn't work.

Special_Ed, if anything this shows that your argument is weak.

From what you're saying, a person could do everything that a "good Christian" would do, but they can't be a "good Christian" because they are gay. So on the flip side of your argument, a person could do many horrible things, and one good thing would make them a good person.

[Phillip Chapman]

If everyone can please try to steer this topic back to it's original intent which is how an HIV-positive Muppet might be played out on South American Sesame Street that would be appreciated.

The imminent issue isn't how a gay couple would or would not be appropriate on Sesame Street or anywhere else for that matter. We've discussed that topic for a day now. Let's agree to disagree, but with MUTUAL RESPECT for the people who share different opinions. This isn't being done to "stifle" discussion, but rather to get the topic back on it's original intent.

When we began discussing this original issue on Thursday, it was a very productive and intriguing discussion. As some have mentioned, the HIV-Muppet story has taken off like wild-fire nationally. On Friday it was one of the lead stories on MSNBC. Our local news here even had a five-minute package dealing with the issue last night.

Appreciate everyone's support in moving on....

[FellowWLover]

Every other thread is permitted to meander on and off a topic, even sometimes on and on about, frankly, nothing. Yet, here we are maturely discussing a timely and thought-provoking issue being asked "to get the topic back on it's original intent." And, it is not as if this discussion has raged on for months or even weeks... after "a day" it has been decided for us that we better get back on track and steer clear of any further controversy.

Honestly, most of us probably have no real idea "how an HIV-positive Muppet might be played out on South American Sesame Street" being that the majority of posters live in the US and Europe. It does not surprise me, therefore, that the thrust of the discussion turned to other topics. What does give me pause is that we are being asked to "move on" in no uncertain terms. So much for the free exchange of ideas.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Jessica, I'm thinkin' it's probably cause not everyone "expressed an opinion". If everyone had just stated their opinions were just that---their opinions---it probably woulda been more acceptable (along with not usin' "potential insults").

[radionate]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Radionate,

3.) Whn you stait that it took you 20 years to figure out you were gay you are proving my point, people are not born gay, they just decide one day that that's the lifestyle for them. You know what else? All homosexual periodicals printed until the early 1980's PROUDLY PROCLAIMED that homosexuality was a choice and one that they took pride in making. It was not until the mid 80's that the tune changed to "This is a birth defect."

I'm going to adhere to Phil's wishes, but I have to make one statement, I'm just upset that I can't use the words I want to in this post.

I NEVER MADE A CHOICE TO BE GAY. I DIDN'T SUDDENDLY DECIDE TO BECOME GAY IN MY TWENTIES. I WAS BORN THIS WAY. IT'S WHO I AM, BUT I WAS TOO UPSET TO ADMIT OR ACT ON IT. I HAD NO ROLE MODELS GROWING UP. I DIDN'T KNOW WHY I WAS DIFFERENT. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOU A**. OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ. I'M NOT A BIRTH DEFECT, I'M A LIVING HUMAN BEING, WHO DESERVES TO LOVE AND BE LOVED LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD. A HUMAN LIVING BEING WHO DESERVES RESPECT FROM THEIR FELLOW MAN. A HUMAN LIVING BEING WHO HAS NEVER RAISED A FIST TO ANOTHER PERSON, OR HELD A PREJUIDICE AGAINST ANYONE WHO IS DIFFERENT THEN I. IT'S A CHOICE ONLY IN THE RESPECT THAT I AM OPEN ABOUT WHO I AM (MORE SO AFTER THESE POSTS), NOT WHAT I AM.

How can anyone suddenly think that one day a person is just going to up and decide to be gay. Human logic doesn't work like that. I think your screen name says it all.

Thank you, and I will now return to a civil discussion about S.S.

[Special_Ed]

Janice & Monkey boy,

"Birth defect" is widely used for all other things people are born with against the norm, there is nothing degrading about it. I think the reason you or anyone would have a problem with it is because it calls it for what it is, according to your logic.

Yes, I read your post, I was telling you what a fetish is. Ask Mr. Webster and get back to me.

No, they have trouble with their orientation because they know that what they are doing is wrong.

Even if I give you this feelings comment, once they act upon them it would be commiting a sin. You keep refering to Christ, but did not Christ say that sins begin in the mind?

No he said: "It took me twenty something years to accept who I am, and 26 years to finally admit it out loud. "

I understand this to be he is saying he is at least 46 years old, decided he was gay when he was 20, and became open about it 26 years after that. I did not misquote him.

Emmy,

That is exactly what I am saying. It is also more than doing good things to be a Christian and if you are not living fulling in Christ then you are not a good Christian. If someone is a thief but is kind to children and little old ladies does that make it okay that he is a thief? No. THat is what I am saying, the only way to make up for a wrong is to syop doing that wrong.

By the way, I like your Freakazoid reference in the signature. :D

Phillip,

You are proving Luke's point about people fearing discussion of these subjects. If you would not like to have any more said in this thread, might I suggest we start a new thread on this subject?

Fellowlover,

Very valid points. Now you have lived a day in my shoes. :)

Janice,

I have yet to intentionally and specifically insult others.

Radiationate,

Your story does indeed suggest that you were not born gay, but decided to become gay. The majority of "How I became gay" stories are the same way. Sad home life, being picked on in school, then turning to be gay in the teens or early twenties. You have not proven you were gay from birth, and in fact no scientist has, just as no scientist has proven that it's learned behavior, hgowever there have been some remarkable studies on both sides, yet they tend to disagree often.

I also was not saying that you as a person were not a birth defect, but your condition can be considered to be a birth defect.

I was not saying you spontaniously decided to become gay, but many experiences through your life drove you that way. It is the media who has taken this birth defect concept and ran with it.

This was a very civil discussion and if you are leaving I am very sorry. It's nice to get a gay person's input on these things. You will be surely missed.

"I think your screen name says it all."

By the way, was that an insult? :)

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Yes, I read your post, I was telling you what a fetish is. Ask Mr. Webster and get back to me.

Uhh, I did quote "Mr. Webster" to you---twice, word for word the second time. I was just lettin' you know what a fetish actually is. In your version, a man bein' attracted to a woman makes him a fetishist. That's why I specified it for ya to what it actually means.

No, they have trouble with their orientation because they know that what they are doing is wrong.

That sounds like you're speakin' for all gay people, though. Some feel that it is wrong, but some also feel just "wronged" by society. There are all kinds of different reasons, not just the "it's wrong" one.

[Special_Ed]

Janice,

What year is your dictionary? I'm using a Webster's 1880 edition, and my definition coms from there. Since this is the version that Noah Webster himself wrote this is the correct definition. Webster has a lot of interesting definitions in here that I'm sure you and many would disagree with.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
What year is your dictionary? I'm using a Webster's 1880 edition, and my definition coms from there. Since this is the version that Noah Webster himself wrote this is the correct definition. Webster has a lot of interesting definitions in here that I'm sure you and many would disagree with.

I used the one online, and I have one downstairs. That must be one interesting edition if it says any sexual attraction is a fetish. Then everybody would be a fetishist, lol.

[Special_Ed]

I assumed you used the online dictionary because I already went there and compaired your post.

But do you have a thurough dictionary or just a cheapy type?

It doesn't state that everyone is a fetish, but erotic things that get's them in the mood are. If homosexuality gets them in the mood then it's a fetish. It's the best dictionary out there because it's a true dictionary in Webster's own words with definitions that wre used for hundreds of years. It's our recent culture that has tried to change them.

[Buck-Beaver]

I generally don't wade in to these sorts of raging debates and certainly don't discuss my religion alot, but I've read your hateful and inflammatory posts and well-intended but misguided holier-than-thou righteous schtick with an increasing sense of alarm and outrage, both as a human being and a Christian.

Ed, as person who values free speech as one of the basic tenants of freedom and democracy I say you are entitled to your own opinion, however ignorant, poorly reasoned and thoroughly stupid it may be.

However, as a normally accepting and tolerant Christian (and on behalf of accepting and tolerant Christians everywhere) I'm compelled to say please sit down and shut up.

Ed said:

Jesus said not to specifically judge a perso of sin, not to judge an action as a sin. I have only stated actions that are sins, not anyone who has committed them. With your spin, nothing would be wrong and there would be no way to hve morals, aka situational ethics. That is not what the BIble teaches at all. I also do not aplogize when I have done or said nothing wrong.

You are cloaking ignorance and intolerance in the robes of God something that is a terrible affront to Christianity. You are using the general to attack the specific. To say your are only citing examples of immoral behavior is frankly B.S.

Your agrument is inherently contradictory. You say in one breath Jesus said not to judge an action as sin. That's very true. But in the next sentance you say that you want to cite actions that are sins.

What's that? That's the sound of someone trying to dig himself out of what he knows is quickly deepening hole.

Unless something happened when I was out, you haven't supplanted God yet Ed. So unless I'm wrong please go back, reread the bible and pay special attention to the new testament because there is a few hundred pages that specifically address why what you are doing here should not be.

The bible does contain several passages which declares homosexuality immoral. It also contains several passages condoning slavery. How do we judge what's what? We must always act and think with the most precious, important and fundamental tenant of Christianity in mind - to accept and love those we have issue with.

To love those like us is easy, to withold judgement of those unlike us is hard. That is the challenge we have as Christians, one we all too often fail to succeed at.

I am friends with a great many gay people who are honest, loving, caring and beautiful people - people to whom it would never occur to say some of the unfortunate, spiteful things the likes of which you have said in this forum. Whether or not you, I or anyone else agrees with their lifestyle is totally irrelevant. If they harm no one, their choices, beliefs and decisions are between God and themselves, no one else. Being Christian does not bestow anyone with the right to pass judgement on anyone on religious or moral grounds and doing so is simply arrogant presumption.

I know you will insist that you are not judging, but you are in fact by your words and actions. Do you really believe that your misguided sense of moral superiority justifies your behavior? If so I'm sorry that you have yet to come to full understanding and appreciation of your own religion.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

[Buck-Beaver]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
I assumed you used the online dictionary because I already went there and compaired your post.

But do you have a thurough dictionary or just a cheapy type?

It doesn't state that everyone is a fetish, but erotic things that get's them in the mood are. If homosexuality gets them in the mood then it's a fetish. It's the best dictionary out there because it's a true dictionary in Webster's own words with definitions that wre used for hundreds of years. It's our recent culture that has tried to change them.

Does this mean hetrosexuality is a fetish too? lol

Using Webster's dictionary to defend a religious position - this keeps getting sillier and sillier - poor Ed, tricks are for kids!

:p

[trekkie1701E]

<Trekkie-- thanks for joining the discussion and sharing your experiences. Sesame Street has long made a habit of including children and adults with disablities and it is one of the things I love about the show.>

Thanks! I have great memories of Sesame Street and I still hold the show very close to my heart. I also consider the years I had surrounding it -- Unique and very fun experiences in special ed at elementary school -- the greatest of my life. So, Sesame Street has that much more meaning -- Compassion, admiration, love -- for me.

Daniel:)

[Special_Ed]

Buck the Beaver,

It alarms me that many Christians in this country have become so desensitized to what is right and wrong that they would rather look the other way than face what the Bible says and live what it teaches.

I have never said anything hateful or judgemental.

You are saying that we were never told what actions constitue as sins, which is totally wrong. I am calling the actions as they are classified in the scriptures.

The Bible does not condone slavery. I suppose you'll also argue that it condones polygamy. Everything in the Bible, such as these topics, were only played out for a set period of time to full fill God's purpose. For example, the multiple wives issue was only carried out in order to build the Earth's population up. When things became of no more use to God's purpose they were stated as such. Homosexuality was never condoned in the Bible and out right called for what it is, a sin.

I do love my neighbor, I just don't care for things they do. Just because I am tolerent of other people does not mean that I have to accept what they do as being moral.

I assume you are also one of the breed who feels it's wrong to preach the gospel to other people, in fear of hurting their feelings and shattering their religious views?

I used Webster's dictionary because Noah Webster was a strong Christian man and the father of definitions. It would do you good to learn more about him.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Hey everybody, I think we Muppet fans should all keep a look-out on the internet!

I have been to two message boards already that have erupted in this SS topic, and they have false information!!

One board I went to has a thread that's titled, "Sesame Street is sooooooo dirty! They are bringing an AIDS puppet to the show! Unclean!"

People like that clearly do not know the facts of what is actually goin' on. At both boards that have had these reactions, I have posted messages straightenin' things out and tellin' 'em the real facts behind the story---one poster didn't even bother to say it was only in South Africa for now!---if he even knew that.

So I urge everyone to keep your eyes open at other boards you visit, and post the real information on what is goin' on here in case you see this story bein' mangled.

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by Janice &amp; Mokey's Man

So I urge everyone to keep your eyes open at other boards you visit, and post the real information on what is goin' on here in case you see this story bein' mangled. [/B]

Thanks for the heads up. This story really has gotten misrepresented all over the place.

[Janice & Mokey's Man]

Originally posted by MuppetQuilter
Thanks for the heads up. This story really has gotten misrepresented all over the place.

It sure has...I'm just tryin' to make sure we all keep lookouts at our "other boards"!

[trekkie1701E]

Alright, Special_Ed & everyone, let's not start a holy war:) ! Some people believe "every" word in the bible while others do not. You either believe it or you don't. Even if you don't believe everything, it doesn't make you a bad christian.
I still believe in what we all heard as younger kids, "If you're good, you'll go to Heaven; If you're bad, you'll go to ****."
We're all only human.

Daniel:)

[Luke]

Originally posted by Phillip Chapman
The imminent issue isn't how a gay couple would or would not be appropriate on Sesame Street or anywhere else for that matter. We've discussed that topic for a day now. Let's agree to disagree, but with MUTUAL RESPECT for the people who share different opinions.

I agree that the whole 'HIV' topic is getting somewhat lesser attention than the 'gay' scenario but i also don't agree that this isn't a valid connected issue. If the Sesame Street producers anywhere in the world are looking at introducing controversial adult topics into childrens television then it's very valid indeed to question whether a gay person/muppet could be introduced and would be a right or wrong move. Both are potential 'hot potatoes' in the media, both are adult subjects not usually discussed at this level, both are ideas that could theoretically be 'workable' in some scaled down way to a producer intent on handling these kinda subjects. If half the population of South Africa were homosexual rather than HIV and they wanted to educate little kids about how different people have different feelings then can you honestly say that they wouldn't have introduced a Muppet who felt that way too ? I doubt it !

I think the thing to warn people about, rather than steering them off any undesirable topic, is for people to watch carefully what they say in relation to others. In other words, if you have strong opinions then fine state them, but use that MUTUAL RESPECT we are always talking about to judge how you state them in relation to the other people that are also here on the board. I think Special Ed especially has been guilty of going full steam ahead and using pretty strong words like 'birth defect' when he blatently knows how people are going to react to that. I do agree that is definitely NOT the way forward but I also think to an extent we need to be able to discuss this here without having to stick rigidly to what was said in the news reports - after all, it's also going on at every other 'news' message board and be handled ok so it'd be a shame if the most well known 'Muppet' one couldn't handle it.

[FellowWLover]

I do love my neighbor, I just don't care for things they do. Just because I am tolerent of other people does not mean that I have to accept what they do as being moral.

And here we get to the heart of the matter...

Do we have to grant others a blanket of morality for them to consider that we are "tolerant" of their activities? Is one's own morality compromised if one stands silently by and does not speak out against what one considers to be immoral behavior?

Moral dilemmas such as these stretch into everyday life. If Ed believes the homosexuality is a sin, I will also wager that he believes it would be sinful as well for him not to try to shed light on the subject. Some Christians believe that active evangelizing (as in preaching the gospel) is the duty of true Christians.

It is indeed a tricky wire to walk. Is Ed truly tolerant? Or is his strong feeling about the morality of homosexual behavior discrimination in itself?

[Jackie]

Who's to say what religion in the world is right? There are hundreds and hundreds of cultures. Each believing that they are right and no one else is. There is a family down the street from me who tells a friend of my brother's all the time that he's going to (for sake of this board) heck for being of the Jewish religion. Things like that really upset me. I think it's very ignorant to believe that you are completely right and no one else is.

I do not believe in god or a religion, but I don't expect other people to believe that. I couldn't possibly say that I am definitely right that there is no other "powers" out there that created everything. I just believe what I choose to believe and I try to be a good person with what I have. I know many bad people who have religion, and I know many good people who have a religion. Same with the people who don't. Every person is different, and I try to judge people individually, for who THEY are inside.

It's good to incorporate other people's views into your own. It's not good to just stick to old written beliefs that could POSSIBLY be outdated. We have to question authority sometimes because it's not always right. I know for a fact that if I did believe in a God I would question him QUITE often.

Back to what I was trying to say now...God never came down from above and said to me, "Jackie, all gay people are morally wrong." That's like God saying to me..."Jackie, kill your brother and prove your faith to me." I wouldn't hurt my brother, and I would not believe that gay people are any different from me.

I can't understand how a gay person feels because I don't have those type of feelings. But if they feel attracted to a person of their sex the way I feel towards my boyfriend, then I believe what they feel is a truly good thing.

I love my friends on this board and everything that makes them them, and when someone tells them that they are wrong, it hurts me because they have no right to say that. I don't care if you believe it, but DO NOT tell them that they are wrong. Everyone is FREE to believe what they need to believe. Just as Special Ed needs to believe in what he believes in. We can't change his mind, but just as Sesame Street trys to do...it educates children to be open in their acceptance of other people, something in which parents can't always provide.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by beaker

Hey, speaking of a person on Sesame with AIDS, I saw they just came out with an Elmo's World playset with Mr. Noodle. I think if anything, Mr. Noodle is a great example of someone living with the disease that they could start with.

When it started out, Mr. Noodle kinda creeped me out (i dunno why). Now that I know he has this, I can't watch it anymore. Mainly because I've been such a doofus about not liking him, now I feel so sorry, and I respect him.

Of course, repecting someone who wears a nerd ensamble (as Homer Simpson would say), capering about, and wearing a goofy grin on his face is a new one to me!

At least he goes out and does his job. I salute Mr. Noodle.

[Joggy]

My thoughts on everything I've seen here... not meant to agree or disagree with anything, just my opinions...

What I see in today's world is two ways of thinking. One is: "Life is BAD. If you find something good coming your way, you're lucky." Or: "Life is GOOD. If anything bad happens, that's bad luck."

Call me naïve or childish, but I believe in the second option and I always believed in it, and I always will. I think this is an attitude that should be taught to children, because it helps them appreciate life. I see so many people in my neighbourhood who have no idea how to enjoy life, simply because their lives had been nothing but learning hard things about life - such as "Life is about work", "Nobody in the world can be trusted because everyone is different", "Never mind, everybody's gonna die somehow". No wonder every young person in my country is slaved to partying, drinking, sex and drugs. When I grew up, every conflict in life like racism, sex, wars and diseases would be discussed whenever I felt I needed to know it - either in school or by my parents.

One way to accomplish this is to offer children a safe world to flee to, without losing grip to the real world. Which is where TV comes in. I think serious considerations should be taken when making, and letting children watch, such TV shows. Henson's always been good at this. After all, isn't the dream of 'another world' the reason why all the Muppet fans loved Fraggle Rock and/or Sesame Street as a child? Isn't this the main factor of true Muppet fandom?

Nevertheless, there's the mentioned "without losing grip to the real world". Which is where SS comes in. Sesame Street always managed to teach children about tough things in life, to a certain extent. Such as death (Mr Hooper) and racism (for instance, in the beginning, so many people were against Susan and Gordon because they were black). But never in a way like: "Kids, watch out. The world is bad and dangerous and here's what you can do to survive." Which SS has never been about and, I hope, never will be. What Annika wrote about an US version, Zoe's cousin coming to visit, would be a very good way, I think.

We're not even talking about a US version - AIDS and HIV is a serious problem in South Africa and I think this new Muppet would be just as useful for teaching children there to appreciate people with the disease, as Gordon and Susan are for teaching children that black people and white people are the same.

I wonder what would happen if this were the 60's and someone would say "We're gonna bring black and white people together in a kids' show". I think we'd have the same sort of discussion then.

About the homosexuality thing - that's something that cannot be solved. People will always disagree. Some will approve of it, some won't. Some because they find it perverse, others because the Bible says or doesn't say so or because they find it morally wrong. Everyone has a right for their own opinions, as long as we leave eachother alone and don't insult other people. What we do have to keep in mind in especially this discussion is the difference between homosexuality and, let's say, murdering. Killing a person is against the human rights. Homosexuality isn't. Nobody is being harmed (well, unless you don't wear protection…) when a man loves another man or a woman loves another woman.

About homosexuality on Sesame Street - as far as I know, sex has never been a Sesame Street topic and I think it's wrong to teach children about it at the age of four. Toddlers do not need any sexual education because they have different ideals, mostly needs like food and love.

There's been hetero love on SS, for example Maria and Luis' marriage, and even though this leaded to the birth of a child, the sexual part has never been involved. It's just loving eachother.
If there would be a homosexual couple on SS, that would be the way to do it, but I think we already have perfect role models - Bert and Ernie. Sure, they are not homosexual. They're just friends. But they are two boys living together and being the closest of friends and loving eachother (why else do they constantly say "I like you"?)

One final word on the whole thing: What I have noticed is that the US are always very careful and scared about presenting topics to kids. Europe, at least Holland, seems to be more tolerant. Remember how shocked, or at least surprised, everyone was when Bear devoted a whole episode and a book to "potty time"? Let me tell you - in our version of Sesame Street, it is SO common for a character to say "poop" or "pee" and any other variation of it. Last season, they devoted one episode to swearing (Tommie the dog learns that yelling 'SH##' at an adult is not a decent thing to do). Dutch SS even shows kids going to the toilet with the door open, or actors taking a shower, and there's never been a fuss about that. It's everyday life and there's no need to keep it a secret.

[Special_Ed]

Trekkie,

It's more than being a good or bad person. IT's accepting Christ into your heart and living it.

Luke,

Great post, as always. I didn't use the term "birth defect" to get a reaction, I used it because that is what they classified it as. If they're born with it and it's against the norm, as they so claim, then it's indeed called a birth defect.

Fellow lover,

I don't not think it is sinful to be silent when you have a chance to evangelize to others and steer them on the right path, however it is not the right thing to do. If you see someone drowning do you just watch them die or try to save them?

I never said I wasn't descriminating, I said I was tolerent of other people, just not accepting of their actions.

Jackie,

There are a lot of facts that support Christianity as the one true religion. For example there are things in the Bible mentioned about the earth in general that were not known by science until a few decades ago. Even the widely accepted theory of evolution has flaws in it so large you could drive a semi truck through them.

Not everyone can be right, can they? THere can only be one true religion.

Religion is not what makes a person behave badly or goodly. I'm not sure how or why people have that concept.

THe Bible can NEVER be outdated and you can NEVER question God because He is ALWAYS right. You may remember two people who questioned God, Adam and Eve? 'Nuff said.

Do you not recall when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son to prove his faith to Him? You can never question what God commands you to do.

You will be in my prayers.

[Drtooth]

I'm an easy going guy, but let me say this. GET BACK TO THE TOPIC.

Really, I think everyone is entitled to an opinion (even if we all disagree, we're not The Buddy Bears, you know). In my opinion, I see nothing wrong with an alternate life style, and I don't think it's really about against the bible as xenophobic thoughts (sorry, that's my opinion). I have an aunt and her friend (We say Two aunts) that are lesbians. I don't give a rat's fez about it. They are my favorite aunts, and they always give me all this stuff for Christmas (even though my sister gets more. I wish I were cute).

But Ed is entitled to his opinion as much as Luke's or Joggy's. So what ever he says, he says it out of free speech and no one can really blaime him for that!

[FellowWLover]

Well I certainly did not mean to speak for you. I figured that you probably felt it was your Christian duty to bring the "immorality" of homosexuality to the attention of the public, since why else would you be posting here? It seems clear that most people on the forum (at least of those who have participated in the conversation) disagree with you. Unless you are trying to change their attitudes, or at least present a case for the "other side", what is your purpose?

I do have one query, though. How is it possible for you to be both discriminatory *and* tolerant? To me, someone is discriminatory if their views translate into actions... for instance, if you had a gay neighbor who you shunned or a gay employee who you refused to promote simply based on their sexual preference.

I do, however, think that it is possible to disagree with the morality of a homosexual lifestyle without being discriminatory, therefore being tolerant, although still opposed. For instance, you could be civil to your gay neighbor, and amiable with the lesbian employee without drawing their lifestyles into question. I thought that was what you were trying to say when I quoted you.

[Special_Ed]

Joggy,

There is no such thing as luck, everything is divinely thought out as part of a master plan.

THese things were not discussed with children decades ago and the children of these decades did not suffer from the +things you have mentioned here. It is only when we started to thrust this junk onto young minds that their immoral behavior skyrocketed.

There is harm in homosexuality. What a joke, saying there is not!

So you're saying that the Dutch Sesame STreet has tried to replace parenting?

DrTooth,

I have a similar aunt, and I know what it's like. Are you saying you are being bought into accepting your's by gifts?

Thanks for reminding everyone that this is FREE SPEECH!

Fellow Lover,

I am here to debate the issue in a logical way, but the other members here resort to either name caklling, anger, or try to change the subject.

I meant I'd be considered discrimitory because I refuse to accept homosexuality as being a good thing. I am tolerent because I live with these people without physically harming them. Your last paragraph is what I was trying to say. Perhaps our definitions of discrimination are different?

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Special_Ed

DrTooth,

I have a similar aunt, and I know what it's like. Are you saying you are being bought into accepting your's by gifts?

Thanks for reminding everyone that this is FREE SPEECH!


You're welcome, though I don't agree with you.:D or should it be :mad: ?

Aw forget it.

But I accept it, mainly because I'm an easy going guy, and my philosophy is, if it feels good, do it. Of course it does not include making fun of anyone, killing anyone, or anything like that.

But really. Could we get back to the point? This is about Africa. South Africa. HIV is a big deal over there! WHy? I don't watch the news much!

[Joggy]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Joggy,

There is no such thing as luck, everything is divinely thought out as part of a master plan.

Well, fine if you believe so... People may indeed think that way, and I respect that.

There is harm in homosexuality. What a joke, saying there is not!

I can only say one word: Arguments, my friend. Arguments. I don't say this because I disagree with you (anyone has the right to an opinion), I say it because I think just saying things without giving any good reasons and just making me seem ridiculous, like you did here, is just as big a 'joke' as my point about 'there's no harm in homosexuality'.

You would have stated your point just as clearly if you would have said "I don't agree with you." Because right now, you seem to be making fun of things I believe, and I certainly do not hope that is your way of handling a discussion.

So you're saying that the Dutch Sesame STreet has tried to replace parenting?

I never said anything like that. I'm just saying that over here, very normal topics (to me) like hygiene (going to the bathroom) are easily talked about in children's programming, whereas in America, people seem to be more hesitant against those things mentioned in kids' shows. That's all. No parenting involved here.

[radionate]

Everyone on the board,

Please accept my personal apologies. I know I said I would no longer post, but I feel I need to defend myself. I will stop posting to this thread as long as Mr. Special Education will stop:

a.) Responding to me
b.) Misquoting me
c.) Leave me out of the conversation compleatly, as you cannot have a discussion about a subject this touchy on a computer. It's just too frustrating for me, and I don't have that much time. I have a life to live, not a lifestyle to defend.

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Your story does indeed suggest that you were not born gay, but decided to become gay. The majority of "How I became gay" stories are the same way. Sad home life, being picked on in school, then turning to be gay in the teens or early twenties. You have not proven you were gay from birth, and in fact no scientist has, just as no scientist has proven that it's learned behavior, hgowever there have been some remarkable studies on both sides, yet they tend to disagree often.

I was not saying you spontaniously decided to become gay, but many experiences through your life drove you that way. It is the media who has taken this birth defect concept and ran with it.


1.) I am 27 years old. I was born gay. I was not picked on, did not have a sad home life, was not molested, or anything else that turned me gay in my teens. I have proven I have been gay by birth from my own life and testimony. Just because we haven't found a genetic explaination yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. There has been a great majority of advances in genetic research. We don't know why a lot of things happen in the world, but that doesn't mean they aren't natural events, it just means we lack the technology, knowledge, and know how to figure out why. So you did indeed misquote me.

2.) When I was a teenager I finally found the word to describe what I was feeling. Homosexuality. It was a word I could not utter out loud until my twenties. On April 20, 2001 I proclaimed out loud for the first time that I was gay. I am one of the lucky ones. I have a fantastic support group of friends (mainly straight), who love me and are there for me. Many gays do not. For my blessings, I thank God everyday. For I know that he did not instill anything on me that I could not handle. I also know that I am not a sinner in his eyes.

3.) I also made a decision when I came out that it would serve a purpose. I am very highly visible in both my community and 2 state area. Therefore I have not faced many descriminations or hardships, as I have been embraced by most. I am lucky. But others are not. I pick my fights carefully, and this WAS one of them. I don't really want to get into it here, as I don't care to share with you. But know this. I chose to speak up here, many did not. Please drop this topic, and move on. I find it odd that you have signed onto MC only to post in this thread. Get out of the dark ages. You obviously have a computer. Use it to expand your horizons. Educate yourself, and don't infer things into peoples conversations.

RADIO NATE

[Drtooth]

WHAT ABOUT SOUTH AFRICA!?!?! Wasn't that the whole point? Instead of this heated debate about gender preferences.

Once again, I think people should be who they are, gay, strait, even both. But really. South Africa's the problem, not the US, the Morality crusade, not that stuff at all.

Phffff!

Now, let's get back to South Africa.

(By the way, I'm repeating South Africa all this time so I can remember what we were talking about!

[FellowWLover]

as long as Mr. Special Education will stop: I realize that you are angry, but who are you trying to insult here... Special_Ed or developmentally delayed people enrolled in special education classes?;)

[radionate]

Originally posted by FellowWLover
I realize that you are angry, but who are you trying to insult here... Special_Ed or developmentally delayed people enrolled in special education classes?;)
Hey W lover,

Nobody really, I was just really upset and it was a little play on the fact that he has been mis-typing everyone's name (radiationate, Monkey Man).

Trust me, not giving anyone any ammo!:D

[Special_Ed]

Dr tooth,

Your comment on your philosophy is what I'm talking about, situational ethics. "If it feels good, do it." is an unacceptable way to behave.

Joggy,

You did not give anything to support that Homosexuality is harmless, when you do I shall rebutt.

If I were making fun of your opinions, you'd know it.

The things you have metioned that Dutch TV teaches children are none of Dutch TV's business. Leave parenting up to the parents.

Radiationate,

If an internate conversation is upsetting you then you are just too into these things. That's the silliest thing I"ve ever heard.

1.) Your life story proves nothing. It does not provide a complete and thurough history to explain anything. There is no such thing as a gay gene and if they ever claim to find one you can be certain that gay groups all over the country will quickly try to protect the so called gay gene from being tampered with.

2.) Blaming God for your choice of lifestyle is a cop out and a sad one at that.

3.) I have been reading the other threads, just not posting. I'm a very busy man and only have time to post in things I chose to post about. I am not in the dark ages and nothing shall ever remove my morailty derived from God!

Fellow lover,

LOL!

Radiationationater,

I don't deliberately try to get your names wrong, (that time I did, just to show how silly you're being.) You know who I'm talking to and that's what really matters.

-The Special Edmeister

[Jackie]

I think it would be a good idea for them to introduce an HIV-Positive Muppet on Sesame Street...I mean we've shown paralyzed people, blind people, why not someone with a disease. It doesn't matter what the problem is, we should be accepting and love all people, no matter what kind of disease or problems they have. I say it will expose the child to a new kind of disease that they are usually shaded from, and educate the parent a great deal.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Jackie
It doesn't matter what the problem is, we should be accepting and love all people, no matter what kind of disease or problems they have.

Sniff Sniff! True true true!!

But I can't tell if I'm crying because you're speach is beautiful, or that no one read my Telephone cat post!

[Hays]

Special Ed - I am not, personally, a Christian, but I have a real problem with Christians sermonizing about someone else's behavior when the New Testament QUOTES Jesus as saying "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."

I think this is because (though, again, I'm not a Christian) as sinners we probably don't have a clear idea of what is a sin and what isn't. That's God's job - our job is to muddle through as best we can and let the rest of the world do the same. I don't think homosexuality is a sin, and there is good evidence that the Bible doesn't think so either (if you don't include the Old Testament - but there many, many "sins" listed there that are clearly ignored by Christians - eating pork, for example)

I hope that my earlier statements about toddlers not being ready for discussions about sexuality didn't give the impression that I support any kind of judgement about someone else's personal life, or that I believe that homosexuality is wrong. Don't forget the Declaration: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I think it is wrong to stop anyone from pursuing happiness just because what makes them happy is different from what makes me happy.

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Hays
"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."

How about a scone? Can I cast the first scone, then?

Sorry! I'm just trying to releive the tention...I caused....uh...by telling that joke!

[Jackie]

Yay Hays!!

I wonder if I have any sin? LOL! :)

[Luke]

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to post a link that Warrick gave to me in chat. He has an article on his SUPERB website that we all know and love. It's all about the South African version of Sesame Street from a magazine article and you can view it here (http://www.angelfire.com/super/sesameworld/magcover.html). It's large pictures so it takes a while to load !

I think this would be useful for people trying to give their opinions on how the show in question would handle things if they knew more about it - so nows your chance !

Love and Penguins,

[Drtooth]

Is it just me, or is Elmo part of the cast there as well? Maybe i's his African relative!

All I know, is that they have Big Bird as a part of the Chinese cast!

[frogboy4]

Is a scone like a muffin? (Had to be asked)

[Drtooth]

Actually it's more like a biscut, like one you'd make from Bisquik, with stuff like rasins or blueberries in it!

[frogboy4]

But would it be in the muffin family?

[MuppetQuilter]

Yes, I believe you could classify a scone as a member of the muffin family. But maybe we should find a scone and ask it, I'm a big believer in self-labeling. :p

Umm, you can toss scones this way. Especially if they are fresh and of the raisin variety.

Joggy-- I found your post quite interesting. In my opinion, Americans do get uptight about some very mundane parts of human existence. I wonder what other topics are covered on some Sesame Streets and not others? Does the Dutch Sesame dwell on cooperation-- sharing, working together-- a lot?

I'm looking at the article, thanks for the link, Luke.

[Buck-Beaver]

Originally posted by Drtooth
WHAT ABOUT SOUTH AFRICA!?!?! Wasn't that the whole point? Instead of this heated debate about gender preferences.

Once again, I think people should be who they are, gay, strait, even both. But really. South Africa's the problem, not the US, the Morality crusade, not that stuff at all.

We were all discussing South Africa? lol

Seriously, I think this is a very good idea in South Africa and probably well overdue there. AIDS is on the verge of wiping out much of the population of Africa and South East Asia. It's a disaster that is made worse by Western Nation's reluctance to address the issue properly and African and some Asian governments refusal to acknowledge the crisis.

Any AIDS education program in Africa is a good idea at this point, both for awareness and prevention. From what I've read the goal of this character is to raise awareness about a crippling disease and promote tolerance and understanding of it...and as we have already discussed at length, tolerance and understanding is a good thing.

BTW, there is an interesting book from UNICEF on the use of puppetry in education around the world and it has sections on AIDS - portions of the book are online at Puppets with a Purpose - Using Puppetry For Social Change (http://www.unicef.org/puppets/pup01.html)

[EmmyMik]

That is exactly what I am saying. It is also more than doing good things to be a Christian and if you are not living fulling in Christ then you are not a good Christian. If someone is a thief but is kind to children and little old ladies does that make it okay that he is a thief? No. THat is what I am saying, the only way to make up for a wrong is to syop doing that wrong.

Special_Ed,

I see the point that you're trying to make, but how can you put being gay in the same classification as being a thief?

A someone who constantly steals can be a threat to me. A person who is gay won't be a threat to me just because they are gay.

I know that we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. I can't speak for other people, but all that I am asking for is for you to hear what we have to say. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but you just have to know where we stand. I know that I have tried to see things from your angle. I don't agree with it, but I have come to accept that some people feel the way that you do...

[Buck-Beaver]

Originally posted by EmmyMik
Special_Ed,

I see the point that you're trying to make, but how can you put being gay in the same classification as being a thief?
Emmy, you know what - I think Ed just wants a fight. Phillip and several other members are right - we should steer the discussion back towards something directly Muppet-related.

If Ed wants to prohesize his beliefs - and that is certainly his right - the internet offers a multitude of other, much more appropriate forums to do it in.

Let's get back to the one subject everyone agrees on - the Muppets!

[MuppetQuilter]

Buck-Beaver, thank you for the link! What an interesting book. As a Muppet fan and a sociologist, I am fascinated.

Here's a link to purchase it on Amazon (hope this works):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9839054201/qid%3D989604441/sr%3D1-2/thecommunicat-20/102-0939243-6392917

Yes, anything that could help the situation in Africa and parts of Asia is definitely worth a try. Treatment and prevention are, obviously, essential and get most of the attention (which, I believe, is only right). But understanding and compassion are such an important part of being human. Hopefully this character will help children learn to interact with the person and not just see the disease.

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by Buck-Beaver

Emmy, you know what - I think Ed just wants a fight. Phillip and several other members are right - we should steer the discussion back towards something directly Muppet-related.

If Ed wants to prohesize his beliefs - and that is certainly his right - the internet offers a multitude of other, much more appropriate forums to do it in.

Let's get back to the one subject everyone agrees on - the Muppets!

Yeah. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Whether we agree with him or not, those are his beliefs. There's nothing we can do. To each his own.

[Special_Ed]

Jackie,

Why should we specifically introduce every form of disease known to man to young children? That's the problem here. Since disabilities/diffeences have been tackled in the past on SS, them this issue has been addressed by the show already and to hit every specific thing to be tolerent about would be redundant.

Hays,

Go read Theselonians and get back to me.

To understand the subject of eating pork you must understand Jewish history and biology of the day. There was a reason why pork was not to be consumed by the jews, the animal very easily carried disease. In the New TEstament this law was taken away.

We are given pure moral guide lines to follow and are not to just muddle through. YOu can also learn from the past and those who have come before us to understand what is right and wrong.

Just as soon as my good friend returns my HIstory book to me I'll give you so great quotes to use too.


Emmy,

I put being gay and stealing in the same classification because they are both sins and therefore equal.

Buck Beaver.

No, I don't want to fight, I want to share the righteous love of the Lord with you. :)

I guess I'm just too much for you, if you're chosing to give up....

[trekkie1701E]

<It's more than being a good or bad person. IT's accepting Christ into your heart and living it>
Believe what you will. I respect that.
But, I hope you keep an open mind to everything else mentioned here. If people did not keep an open mind about all religions & beliefs, then we'd be just as vulnerable as, say, Osama Bin Ladin & his terrorist group.

Daniel:)

[trekkie1701E]

<I put being gay and stealing in the same classification because they are both sins and therefore equal>
So ... Shoplifting from Nordstrom is in the same category as who somebody is? Huh????????????????
Who you are attracted to is part of who you are. Go as deep as you want, but it's true. I'm attracted to girls. I was born that way. It's part of "Who I am."
I know that I said in an earlier post enough was enough. But, I can't resist a debate:))

Daniel:)

[Special_Ed]

Trekie,

No, I am not open minded of other religions. Why would I be open to lies?

[Special_Ed]

Daniel,

I happened to bump into my old high school health teacher tonight at Wal*Mart and we talked about this debate. I was surprrised that he agrees with me on this, it's learned behavior and if you are born with it then it is indeed a birth defect.

Isn't being attracted to children part of who a child molestor is then?

[trekkie1701E]

Special_Ed,

Putting a simple attraction in the same category as somebody who hurts children is crazy. Why do you think men being attracted to someone is the same as a sixty year old man having sex with six year old boys? "Because the bible told me so." Well, Did you ever consider that this may be a "belief?" Have you ever wondered why the word "believe" is associated w/religion? You say that other religions are a lie. How do you know? You don't! Why can't you believe in something but still be open to other ideas? Are you that narrow-minded?

Is Osama Bin Ladin your hero?

Daniel:)

[Joggy]

Originally posted by MuppetQuilter
I wonder what other topics are covered on some Sesame Streets and not others? Does the Dutch Sesame dwell on cooperation-- sharing, working together-- a lot?

Yes it does. Sesamstraat (our SS) is aimed more at social behaviour rather than basic learnings like the alphabet and numbers - although those do play a rather prominent role - because the original target group for Sesame Street (inner city kids who are too poor to go to school) is not as large in our country.

There was a time in the early eighties when our SS emphasized emancipation and really exaggerated it - for a while, it was simply WRONG to have the female characters do housework on the show and wear dresses etc. The women would always do carpentry in overalls, and the men were always working in the kitchen. Has US SS ever gone through a time like this?

[matleo]

Yes
Several years ago Maria (one of the humans on our street) went through a series of jobs mosty in construction and the like because women's lib was big at the time. Our SS is going through a similar thing now following the attacks on the world trade center where understanding different ethnicities is important, and dealing with grief is important and so on and so on. I have no problem with an HIV positive Muppet on the South Afircan version. AIDS is huge problem over there and it seems lik the curriculum they want to cover can be done. they're not using Muppets ot teach sex or religion or whatever else. like our Muppets teaching grief and understandging right now, the South African SS is being relative to its society.

To all--
I'm surprised that we've discussed HIV this much and no one has mentioned Richard Hunt yet? or have I just missed it?


--Matt

[Jackie]

Originally posted by Special_Ed
Trekie,

No, I am not open minded of other religions. Why would I be open to lies?

What makes other religions lies and yours right?

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by trekkie1701E

Is Osama Bin Ladin your hero?


No, but there's this guy in Boston who was arrested for trying to bomb Jewish land marks. Maybe he is.

Seriously. How can someone so religious be so blind? All religions are the same! They just trail off, and they follow someone else.

This is EXACTLY why there is so much war in the world! People thinking their religion is the true religion. We have the Israelis and Palistinians blowing themselves up because their holy books say "God gave them that land." We have Ireland, and people killing others because of their religion. AND THEY'RE BOTH CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS!!!! The Protestants and Catholics kill each other over their religion.

If there's one thing I get out of going to church (I'm a Christian!!!) it's this. I think the most important message is in the ten commandments, mainly "Love thy neighbor!" No matter what, who, where they are. It's a sad sad state of existance when religion, the one thing founded to keep peace amongst God's creations (should you believe or not) is why so many people hate each other and try to kill each other.

Or as Yoda said, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate." (I'm well aware a puppet said that. This is the Muppet Central board you know!)

[EmmyMik]

In getting back to the topic on HIV/AIDS (sorta), a thought crossed my mind. I know that last year's MuppetFest dealt with the charity "Save the Children". Perhaps for the next MuppetFest there should be a charity auction or fundraiser for some kind of AIDS research or AIDS education foundation. It's just a thought...

[Special_Ed]

Trekie,

No the Bible did not tell me so, common sense told me so. Someone said that being attracted to who you are attracted to is who you are, therefore what's the difference between a gay person and a child molestor? It's part of who they are too. Your logic has backfired.

Yes I do KNOW that other religions are wrong. The Bible can be scientifically proven as being correct, where all other religions can not be.

Joggy,

Teaching feminism on SS is insane! Feminists are worse than the "oppression" of whivh they complain to be "victims" of.

Matleo,

Richard Hunt die of aids?

Jackie,

Because thingin the Bible can be PROVEN To be fact! Especially the flood of Noah.

Drtooth,

No, not all religions are the same. There can only be one TRUE religion! I don't think Christianity is right, I KNOW it is!

I do love my neighbor, I just don't accept what they do.

[MuppetQuilter]

That's a good thought Emmy! I think Henson has a history of working with Save the Children and that is why that charity was picked, but I could be wrong. There are a ton of AIDS education and research organizations out there-- many that work specifically with/for kids.

It's really nice to see someone looking for ways to help and make the world a better place! :D

Yoda is very wise, it doesn't matter that he's a puppet. The whole point of Star Wars was to create a modern fable that demonstrated right and wrong, good and evil. We're supposed to take life lessons from it.

I would like to ask that we all try to be respectful and rise above that which is hurtful and inflamatory. Let's not get down to the same level. That will only serve to exacerbate the situation. Name-calling isn't very Muppety. The Muppets put up with Statler and Waldorf without hurling insults back. Lecture over. :p Thanks!

[sal]

Aids in Africa is the greatest tragedy in the World today. The scale of the problem is enormous and the plight of Africa has been largely overlooked by the Western World. Thank you Sesame Street for raising the awareness of adults in the West to this issue. Perhaps some US politicians now know where South Africa is? (just below Zimbabwe, which has an even greater Aids problem)

[Wozza Fraggle]

Now you know that Richard Hunt had Aids, What do you think of the Henson Company ?

They hired someone who had Aids...

(I have not problem with it at all)

[Jackie]

Originally posted by *Warrick*
Now you know that Richard Hunt had Aids, What do you think of the Henson Company ?

They hired someone who had Aids...

(I have not problem with it at all)

That's because the Henson company accepts, loves, and understands all kinds of people...

[Wozza Fraggle]

I know that !

But i wanna know Ed's take on this...

see ya

[matleo]

I don't know if it was AIDS that killed him but it was HIV. As most people know there is a difference between the two. HIV is what causes AIDS. Whether Hunt contracted the disease through drugs, sexual or preference or what I do not know. But I can say this, he was a great talent and a treasured member of the Muppet family. And he is missed.

Warrick not to blow your deffense but I don't think they hired Richard when he had HIV. I'm pretty sure he was a puppeteer first, HIV victim second. Either way. Yes, Richard Hunt died of HIV. And yes Jim knew about that before he (Jim) died.

DR TOOTH
You bring up an interesting point that most of the wars fought are religious based. Look at World War II for example. Adolf Hitler wanted Jews exterminated for their beliefs. You may be interested to know that SS has produced a Pakistani co-production that is deisgned to try and bridge Pakistani and Muslim beliefs and are currently at work on an irish co-production to try and brisge the Catholis church and...the catholic church. Incidentally, I have heard that they are actually havign a harder time with the Irish production that the Pakistani production. when they put these co-prodcutions together it's interesting cause they send puppeteers from our S over to train the puppeteers in the other countries. And they really have to try and find puppeteers who are in touch with what is important and funny in that particular culture. So when they design something like South African SS they design the curriculum to be topical o that culture. As Joggy pointed out having girls go to school in the Denmark production or having two different street in the Pakistani production with a bridge between the two and encouraing characters from each side to understand each other or our recent dealings with tragedy tolerance. it's interesting.

Special_Ed
yes, there are some thing in the bible that can be scientifically proven right. there are also things that have proved scietifically wrong.

--Matt

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Special_Ed

I do love my neighbor, I just don't accept what they do.

Well, as long as you love them, that's what counts.

[beaker]

how far from the innocence tree this thread has fallen.
*puts the police line tape around this whole thread*

who would a thought toughpigs forum would be the less controversial?

[Special_Ed]

Muppet quilter,

I have yet to be hurtful or inflamatory. If you want to go to a place that is I suggest you visit either ******.com or it's ******.com. I saw this website featured on 20/20 once and the webmaster is a sicko, but I bet you'd all classify me with this man.

Sal & the rest,

Maybe if the people of Africa would refrain from having premartital sex then the aids problem there would stop growing!!!

Warrick,

You sure are a silly little man. When did I ever say I was anti aids infected people? Also on a professional level you sometime have to work with people who are different than you. The guy who played Gandalf in Lord of the Rings is gay, but he is a fine actor and I'd hire him too if I had made that film. (My first choice would have been Patrick Stewart however.)

Jim Henson was a scoitologist and therefore had very different beliefs than I do, but he is one of my top heroes in the family film area. I respect the work these people can do, not who they are as a person.

I guess my take dissapoints you.

Matleo,

Because the Jews have become a target of many groups over the centries, but have always survived, doesn't it make even the biggest athiest wonder if they very well could be the chosen people? Look at the great civilizations that rose and fell, Egypt, the Roman Empire, etc., but the lowly Jews survived through it all. Isn't it amazing?

[Jackie]

Posting those links was extremely inappropriate...

[Drtooth]

You know, there was this one guy in Germany who hated gays and Jews, and thought that Christianity was the one true religion....

I think his name was ADOLF something...

ACHTUNG!!!!

[Phillip Chapman]

The situation with Special_Ed is taken care of. All areas of his account have been suspended.

Let's move on to other things now...

[Phillip Chapman]

This thread is now open again. It was closed for a few minutes in order to take care of a few things.

If you were trying to post to this discussion during this time your posts didn't go through.

Appreciate everyone's understanding.

[matleo]

Thank you Philip,...ever playing the "kermit" role ;)

....now, who wants S'Mores??
--Matt

[frogboy4]

Me...me...I want some. Wait! Is there corn syrup in those?;)

[MuppetQuilter]

Now Jamie, we've been over this. Smores are not vegetarian. And the chocolate has corn syrup. :p

[matleo]

Uhhh.....I don't know. probably. There's marshmellow, chocolate and graham cracker so ou basically have every artificial ingredient known to man (or frogboy) Let's raid the cabinet and see if we can find sometihng else.


BTW: Just read Luke's pre-seeing this open again rant!!! Wow!! Some real good points!! If anybody here hasn't read it I suggest taking a look at it. It's one of his best postings really!!




--Matt

[dwmckim]

S'Mores?

Are you kidding?

After everything that's gone on here, i'm aching for S'less!:D

[radionate]

I can make you a pretend Smore with Cardboard, Mud, and Paste. It might not taste good, but it won't have corn syrup!!!! (and it'll look the same)

[Hays]

Sorry that the Special Ed situation had to end this way, but unfortunately there are none so blind as those who will not see. When I was working at Border's the most frequent cases of in-store harassment were perpetrated by well-meaning folk of his ilk, in just such a manner.

HIV and AIDS has taken scores more puppeteers than just the late great Richard Hunt, unfortunately. Those of us who were in the business lost many, many mentors in the late 80's. Without hating anybody involved, I HATE that disease!

On the Africa subject, I don't remember who started it, but there was a great political debate among the African governments about the HIV/AIDS connection (somebody claiming it didn't exist.) I can't imagine how Sesame Street could respond to that, but did it come up?

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by matleo
....now, who wants S'Mores??

Some more what?

:D

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by Hays
Without hating anybody involved, I HATE that disease!

On the Africa subject, I don't remember who started it, but there was a great political debate among the African governments about the HIV/AIDS connection (somebody claiming it didn't exist.) I can't imagine how Sesame Street could respond to that, but did it come up?

To the first part-- yes, it is a horrible disease. Not only does it kill, but it so often kills very slowly in a variety of painful ways. Just awful.

On the second, I haven't seen anything about that in regard to the Sesame character. It would be an interesting challenge... I think the character will mostly tackle understanding for people with HIV and the belief that HIV is not connected to AIDS would certainly be an easy thing to connect to that. I can't imagine much that would be more painful than knowing you are HIV+, in a nation where drugs that can improve qaulity and length of life are not readily available, and having people deny what lies ahead of you.

Umm, how about apple pie and ice cream? I don't really feel like s'mores and s'less well, there's no sugar in that so what's the point?

[matleo]

Apple Pie and ice cream!! Very Richie Cunningham.....I like it!! To the kitchen!!!

--Matt

[EmmyMik]

I want muffins!


Mmmmmmm... Muffins!

:D

[frogboy4]

Tofu muffins!

[trekkie1701E]

I don't care for apple pie. Gimme a piece of Marie Calendars pumpkin pie and I'm as happy as Rizzo in a buffet line!

Daniel:)

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by frogboy4
Tofu muffins!

**hands Jamie a blueberry muffin**

Err... Yes. "Tofu" muffins...

:D

[matleo]

Having completed a long day of discussing Muppets, religion, and politics it appears our merry band has turned it's attention to more important matters...dessert! I think things are back to normal.:rolleyes:

--Matt

[MuppetQuilter]

Oh no, gotta disagree here, pumpkin pie needs to be home made (well, from the can of pumpkin mix anyway-- but with way more cinnamon than they call for on the can) so you can eat warm from the oven with the whip cream melting into the crevices in the pie....

[trekkie1701E]

Well ... yes w/exceptions. I have found that the quality of pumpkin pie differs between some Marie C restaurants. Some will over-do it on the cinamon and/or nutmeg, while others are "perfect." But, I agree, homemade pumpkin pie is "always" the best.

My grandma is diabetic, and along w/pumpkin pie, she also makes a "mean" sugar free low fat cheesecake. It is awesome!

OK... Enough dessert talk for me tonight.

How did we get from a discussion on an HIV positive muppet to debating about desserts, anyway?:)

Daniel:)

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by trekkie1701E
How did we get from a discussion on an HIV positive muppet to debating about desserts, anyway?:)

Daniel:)

I think it comes under the heading of blowing off steam and injecting a little levity into a tense situation. Anyone got a penguin we can toss around?

[radionate]

I know I'm all fresh out here. The local bars have outlawed Penguin Tossing.

(That's a really funny joke if you think about it):D

[EmmyMik]

Originally posted by matleo
Having completed a long day of discussing Muppets, religion, and politics it appears our merry band has turned it's attention to more important matters...dessert! I think things are back to normal.:rolleyes:


Wait, we have a band?

Cool!

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by EmmyMik


Wait, we have a band?


Why of course, The Electric Mayhem

[frogboy4]

What a nice avatar you have.:)

[Luke]

Ok so enough of this idle culinary related chit chat, i am interested in feedback to some questions being pondered :-

How do you think a HIV positive Muppet should be introduced into the South African Sesame Street ?

Do you think the Muppet should be any specific color or race, or would it be better if she was a 'whatever' and was neither one nor the other ?

Should the character stay in the show permanently, or just come in for the storyline and then fade out ?

Should they ever show this character dying or getting more ill, or should they just use it to make the point that the puppet has 'got' HIV. Yes, i know that not everyone contracts full AIDS or dies from HIV .... just looking at possibilities.

[matleo]

I imagine she'll be a monster or 'what not' character. I also imagine she'll be part of the regular cast. I think it actually states that last part in one of the articles. how will she be introduced? Well she is an orphan. I suppose like most SS characters she'll probably wander in from nowhere. Who knows?

--Matt

[Luke]

So if she's going to be a part of the regular cast, do they keep the storyline running permanently or do they just find out she has HIV, do the educational bit, then just have her become a regular character, returning to it from time to time. I know thats often how it is in real life (nothing happening for years and then it developing) but that wouldn't make sense for kids because they need some consistency and by the time it came around again (if it did) many would have fogotten whats supposed to be happening in the first place.

I agree a 'whatnot' - maybe purple or something.

[Gonzo]

I personally think this is a great idea for the South Africa production of Sesame Street---in a nation where almost 30% of the women have contracted HIV, there are millions of children born with HIV who have to live with that, and millions of OTHER children who will be their friends or enemies.

If you think about the American production of Sesame Street, we've gotten to know Linda Bove (deaf, Barkley's owner, Bob's girlfriend), Tara (in a wheelchair, but still liked the dance class) and various guest stars (Ray Charles, Itzhak Perlman etc) and other regulars with different abilities/disabilities than the "mainstream." And there are FAR fewer Americans who are deaf or wheelchair-bound than there are living with HIV or AIDS in South Africa.

I think this is a great move, that shouldn't be tied up with sexuality...and I don't think they should "kill" the Muppet off after a few seasons. I think the emphasis should be that this is a disease that so many of these children will have to live with, and they can still play and learn and grow with the other children just fine...

And they shouldn't have the Muppet represent any particular race...that's just an ENORMOUS can of worms in South Africa....HELLO....I would imagine some sort of bright colorful monster would be the best route to go.

That's it.

Quinnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[MuppetQuilter]

Actually, Luke, I think that would make sense. Sesame Street, in the US anyway, often covers a topic and moves on, but touches on it again from time to time. When the hurricane hit, Big Bird would not go inside and seek shelter without his picture of Mr. Hooper. That touched on Big Bird's continued feelings of loss. I gather the idea is to introduce the character, do some educational stuff on tolerance and accpetance of people with HIV, and have the character be a regular part of the cast. Sesame Street in the US has that little girl who uses a wheel chair much of the time. In her first episode we learned why and some of her thoughts on the matter. The wheel chair is still there and is not ignored, but it is not a constant topic. That is only fair. If the message is 'people with HIV' are people, we need to see them being people. If this Muppet is only shown during discussions of HIV, Sesame will not be doing a proper job of showing that people with HIV have lives beyond HIV. I'm not saying that very well, but hopefully someone can step in and help me out here. Kids do need consistency, but they do not have to see the same thing all the time. If the character were to suddenly be HIV- that would be a huge problem and confuse kids. But if the character is a child and behaves like a child and has the same interests as other children, but is also HIV+ kids will make sense of that. Big Bird doesn't have to talk to his Granny Bird every week and he doesn't have to go roller skating or put on a pretend game show every week. Kids understand those things when they happen and they know they are things Big Bird enjoys. Routine is good, it makes kids feel safe and gives them a sense of control because they can predict what will come next. But everything does not have to be exactly the same everyday.

I can't speak to how the Muppet will be introduced or how I think she ought to be introduced. I've never seen the South African Sesame Street and I am not very familiar with the cultural conventions of that country. I tend to agree with Matt, she'll be a monster-ish Muppet who just arrives. But that is based on my knowledge of the US Sesame Street.

Jamie-- really? you like the new avatar? Well go figure! Thanks!:D

[Wozza Fraggle]

I havent been following this thread real close.

But why does it have to be a Girl ?

To find out some more about Takalani Sesame there is a Four Page Magazine Article on my site -

http://www.angelfire.com/super/sesameworld/takalanisesame.html

Just scroll down and click the Link, Its all images so it may take a while.

see ya

[Luke]

Warrick

I think they have said officially that it's going to be a female Muppet, so it came from Sesame.

Muppetquilter

Great points !!!! I don't think anyone could have said those things better, made perfect sense !

[frogboy4]

The reports I have heard say the character will be an upbeat female Muppet around Elmo's age. All of this is similar to what you have stated, but of course you have the media factor and here in the US. They frequently get the specifics wrong, although this seems to be correct.

I feel the character's color should be a cool calming one - maybe a green or blue, but any color would really do. I hope she's a monster as well.

I don't think they should phase her out or have her die on the show. That was never the point of this character. I have to admit that I do have some problems with this being a Muppet as opposed to a real child who is positive. I really think that would be the best rout and very few people could really complain about or condemn a kid. I would hope the little one to be moderately healthy. I also think that other kids with diseases could come on the show in the future [within reason - this isn't a show about diseases].

As for showing the character sick - definitely not. I think it would be important to show that she had days where she didn't feel very well or some when she couldn't come out and play, but I'd stop it there.

[MuppetQuilter]

Thanks Luke, glad it made sense!

While I have some issues with the idea of a Muppet being sick-- we have covered the Muppets are made of foam and imagination and not subject to the same mortality as humans thing-- I can see a benefit to doing it this way in South Africa.

One of the main reasons Sesame Workshop is doing this is because of the amount of misunderstanding and prejudice that surrounds HIV in South Africa. A child could be ignored and fall vicitim to those same problems. It could, in fact, make life hard on the actual child as the entire nation would know s/he was HIV+. A child also comes with the real possiblity that s/he could become ill and I agree with others who have said the reality of AIDS is not appropriate for any Sesame Street. Because Muppets are immortal, this little monster will be eternally HIV+ and never develop AIDS. This allows the story to continue for years and years. It will allow the character to continue to encourage understanding until AIDS and HIV are a thing of the past. Finally, how much attention did any of us really pay to the humans on Sesame Street? My daughter can name pretty much every Muppet on Sesame Street and most of the TMS cast (down to background folk like Uncle Deadly) but I have never once heard her refer to Maria, Gordon, Gabby or any of the other humans. I think a Muppet will do a better job of getting the message out. Given the state of things in South Africa, there isn't much time to waste.

Now, IF at some point in the future Sesame Workshop were to tackle HIV in the US, then I would argue for an HIV+ child who was healthy. There are plenty out there. I think here, where the problem is less common, a human would work just fine and would keep our idealized, immortal concept of Muppets in tact. Now, before anyone gets upset-- I KNOW there are no plans to do anything related to HIV or AIDS on the US Sesame Street. I know a lot of people are strongly opposed to the idea. I respect that view, though I feel differently.

I don't know why the character is female. Perhaps the powers that be felt a girl would be more sympathetic? Gender roles are, if anything, more polarized and institutionalized in South Africa than in the States, so I'm sure it was not an arbitrary choice. It could be that the show already has a large number of male characters and they needed some equity. It could be that social conventions make it harder to attack a woman. There are all those annoying stereotypes of women as weaker and in need of protection-- maybe they are trying to use some of that to their advantage in some way. It's an interesting question.

BTW, there was a news story in London earlier this week about an HIV+ little girl in Africa (not South Africa, another AIDS-raveged nation). She is three, but due to illness and poverty, she is the size of a one year old. Her mother has just died of AIDS. Her father, siblings, and both sets of grandparents have HIV. And the family has no money for food. I guess I don't really have a point to sharing this, I just wish our own government would put more effort into trying to help and less into threatening PBS.

[matleo]

Originally posted by *Warrick*
But why does it have to be a Girl ?



hey Warrick,
yes, Sesame Workshop has announced it will be a female character because in S. America, more women are affected with HIV then males. hope this helps.
--Matt

[sstVideo]

Please note there is a BIG difference between South AFRICA and South AMERICA.... Takalani Sesame is on in South Africa.

[matleo]

Oh thank you! I knew something sounded wrong when I was typing that. My apoligies for briefly being an obtuse nitwit. Sadly, I was blessed with a Public School education in New Jersey and thus I will often flog something that is completely contrary to what I should be flogging...no, saying. I will often say something contrary to what I should be saying!!
Again thank you for kissing me.... I mean, correcting me.

Seriously, my apologies. You are right. For some reason I had the wrong continent in my head when I was writing. I meant that in South AFRICA HIV occurs more often in women and that is why the character is female. Thank you for the coreection.

love and Sheep...I mean, love and peace,

--Matleo

[SCOOTER_101]

Well if you guys don't remember correctly they talked about Death on Sesame Street when Mr. Hooper died in 1983, so why shouldn't South American Street be able to talk about HIV???

[MuppetQuilter]

Originally posted by SCOOTER_101
Well if you guys don't remember correctly they talked about Death on Sesame Street when Mr. Hooper died in 1983, so why shouldn't South American Street be able to talk about HIV???

Well, um, because Sesame Workshop has decided to introduce an HIV+ Muppet in South Africa, where the AIDS crisis is rampant, not South America.

We've talked a lot about Mr. Hooper's death in the threads related to the HIV+ Muppet. To be fair, while Mr. Hooper's death is a wonderful example of Sesame Street tackleing a difficult subject with grace, the death of an elderly person is very different from a disease that is as politcally charged as AIDS. I think Sesame Street can and should do this (and in more places than just South Africa). Sesame has always had a social agenda (when it premiered, there were movements to ban it in some southern States because it showed Blacks and whites living and working together). But I know there are plenty of people who believe HIV is not an appropriate topic for a children's show. Some because they do not fully understand HIV, some because they don't want young children to watch someone they care about die from a disease as horrific as AIDS, some for purely political reasons, and some for reasons we haven't even thought of.

As for South America, I don't think there is a South American Sesame Street. Some of the individual nations in South America may have versions, but given the range of diversity on that continent, I'd be surprised if one version of Sesame Street were appropriate across the board.

[sstVideo]

Actually, Plaza Sesamo, produced in Mexico City, is distributed throughout South America. It teaches basic Spanish letters and numbers as well as the usual social skills. It is aired in the States on many of the spanish language stations.

[MuppetQuilter]

But in Brazil, the national language is Portuagese not Spanish. How does that work?

[sstVideo]

Spanish scripts are dubbed into Portugese for the Brazilian audience.

[MuppetQuilter]

sstVideo--

thanks for the info!